Should you get an AED? (house, good, emergency, generators)
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If someone suffers a heart attack, you call 911 then begin CPR. But what if emergency services is busy with a big fire? Or you live over 30 minutes from the fire station?
If they weren't so expensive ($1200 or so), having an AED in your home would seem a good idea, but is it worth it? Your opinion?
$1200 is very inexpensive if it can save your life or that of a loved one. It's important to learn as much as you can about its use. Do not tell anyone that you own one of these. It would be a prize worth ten generators during a period of medical services being unavailable or difficult to reach. There was at least one death from a heart attack during a NYC ice storm a few years ago.
AED = Automated External Defibrillator. Essentially it's a small portable DIY defibrillator for emergency use that provides instruction for use as its being deployed. (A fanny pack crash cart of sorts)
A couple problems with public/general access to defibrillators, mostly having to do with benefit/cost evaluation: They 're a bit expensive-particularly if we're talking about a govt program to supply them in large numbers for rare events. They rarely have an effect in the acute situation, and, given that only sick hearts go into V. fib. in the first place, the one year survival rate after requiring defibrillation is amazingly low (like 10%). You could think of it as a matter of not saving a life, but of prolonging a death.
Using the AED gives a fibrillating heart a "re-set point." It's kinda like after a crash at an Indy car event when they get the cars to all bunch up again before waving the green flag. Using the defibrillator will not do anything to a heart in standstill except possibly cause more necrosis of cardiac muscle. It can do that to any heart.
That first pre-cordial thump taught in CPR class is a poor man's defibrillator. It costs nothing, is always handy and has almost as much chance as the expensive one at serving the purpose.
In doing CPR, they're now not teaching the mouth to mouth thing anymore. They finally realized it doesn't move any air. They now realize that the external cardiac compressions are what moves the air (remember the old "in with the good air, out with bad" method seen in Popeye cartoons taught for over a century?) The compressions also jolt the blood back and forth (doesn't really make it flow) in the arteries just enough to delay sludging/clotting and further damage to tissue.
Funny, but I figured this stuff out as a first yr med student 45 yrs ago. They're just catching up now. I'm not as dumb as I look....I couldn't be.
I know several people that have had to be shocked back to life and not one died in the next year. In fact my mother was one of them and she lived another 25 years. I don't know where the 1 year life extension came from.
I have performer CPR on 3 different people in 20 years on the fire department. Not once did any of them survived. But, this could be because it takes us 30-45 mins to get them to a hospital. If we would have had an AED, then the results could have been better. IMO CPR will just maintain life, not start it again.
BTW preforming real CPR is extremely exhausting. 10 mins is about it for one person.
I don not have a AED but every year I get closer to getting one.
I had them on the volunteer fire department I was on for 12 years, only used it once, seemed to work fine and last I heard the guy was still alive 7 years later.
I agree about CPR, it sucks, but it saves lives. An AED isn't a magic bullet, and you will usually be performing CPR in conjunction with using the AED as it is only for defibrillation, it does not jump start the heart.
Just so we all know what condition we're talking about:
Fibrillation is the rapid, irregular, and unsynchronized contraction of muscle fibers. An important occurrence is with regard to the heart. There are two major classes of cardiac fibrillation: atrial fibrillation and ventricular fibrillation.
Got them at work now, and they do need to be maintained as you have to replace the batteries usually about every 2 years, and the pads every 6 months. They can be a good investment, especially if someone in the household has a heart condition.
They're a great tool, but because of the upkeep and maintenance checks, unless you have a specific reason for having one, I don't see a good cause for the work and expense just to have one.
I know several people that have had to be shocked back to life and not one died in the next year. In fact my mother was one of them and she lived another 25 years. I don't know where the 1 year life extension came from.
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You're assuming the pts were actually in V fib and that it was the defibrillation that "saved their life." Many cases revert to normal rhythm spontaneously and it wasn't actually the shock that did it, or the shock was delivered when it wasn't even needed. I can't believe how many docs I've seen thru the yrs in the ICU setting use a defibrillator on cardiac standstill and then wonder why it didn't work. But then again, I know plenty of cardiac surgeons who themselves do hundreds of CABG procedures each year and still call it "open heart surgery." (It isn't. The coronary arteries are on the outside of the heart. They don't open the heart to do it.)
In a trauma situation, when the first responders arrive and they find an unresponsive victim, they're unresponsive either because of head trauma or because of hypotension due to bleeding/ massive organ damage.. V fib probably isn't a part of the problem. A cardiac pt who is a victim of trauma may suffer an acute myocardial syndrome which may lead to v fib, but the first responders would have to be there already and prepared to deal with it immediately-- you generally only have less than 180 seconds or so to restore effective circulation before permanent damage results.
As far as the life expectancy of less than one year thing goes, the studies were done on hospital patients who are obviously already sick. If you're so sick your heart has pooped out once and needs to be restarted, chances are it'll do it again soon. Healthy hearts don't go into v. fib as a rule. I won't doubt your statement that you know several people who lived long after defibrillation, but after a 45 yr career in medicine, the first 8 yrs of which was spent mostly on intensive care units, I only know a handful who survived that hospitalization, let alone a prolonged survival.
Back to the OP's question: I wouldn't tie up a grand and a half on something I'm probably never gunna use and if I ever did use it, chances are it probably won't do any real good. Surely you could find wiser ways to spend $1500 on stuff for your bug out bag.
You're assuming the pts were actually in V fib and that it was the defibrillation that "saved their life." Many cases revert to normal rhythm spontaneously and it wasn't actually the shock that did it, or the shock was delivered when it wasn't even needed. I can't believe how many docs I've seen thru the yrs in the ICU setting use a defibrillator on cardiac standstill and then wonder why it didn't work. But then again, I know plenty of cardiac surgeons who themselves do hundreds of CABG procedures each year and still call it "open heart surgery." (It isn't. The coronary arteries are on the outside of the heart. They don't open the heart to do it.)
In a trauma situation, when the first responders arrive and they find an unresponsive victim, they're unresponsive either because of head trauma or because of hypotension due to bleeding/ massive organ damage.. V fib probably isn't a part of the problem. A cardiac pt who is a victim of trauma may suffer an acute myocardial syndrome which may lead to v fib, but the first responders would have to be there already and prepared to deal with it immediately-- you generally only have less than 180 seconds or so to restore effective circulation before permanent damage results.
As far as the life expectancy of less than one year thing goes, the studies were done on hospital patients who are obviously already sick. If you're so sick your heart has pooped out once and needs to be restarted, chances are it'll do it again soon. Healthy hearts don't go into v. fib as a rule. I won't doubt your statement that you know several people who lived long after defibrillation, but after a 45 yr career in medicine, the first 8 yrs of which was spent mostly on intensive care units, I only know a handful who survived that hospitalization, let alone a prolonged survival.
Thank you very much for the information. I can't rep you again yet although you deserve ten for that post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto
Back to the OP's question: I wouldn't tie up a grand and a half on something I'm probably never gunna use and if I ever did use it, chances are it probably won't do any real good. Surely you could find wiser ways to spend $1500 on stuff for your bug out bag.
Gold, guns and books immediately come to mind. Those who don't have an ultrasonic cleaner should definitely consider one. The price is about the same. I already live at my retreat so my only bug out direction would necessarily be down.
Maybe no consensus, but certainly some expert opinions from physician and first responder.
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Those who don't have an ultrasonic cleaner should definitely consider one. The price is about the same. I already live at my retreat so my only bug out direction would necessarily be down. 
