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Makes northern Maine feel like a tropical paradise!
Haha, it kind of is by comparison.
I like Maine a lot too. I'm something of a wanderer, or used to be. I still get the itch to pick up and move someplace new and start over again, just for the challenge of building a different self-sufficient lifestyle (but not in Montana!).
The only issues to consider is the 170 million people that live along the East coast, mostly in the North Eastern areas. In a real SHTF that requires people to leave the city and surrounding areas and they will be heading in-land to Kentucky, Tennessee, Western New York state and to Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont, etc.. So those BOL's may not be all that great.
My current BOL is in Eastern Kentucky, an hour's drive from where I live. We don't own property there at the moment, but we have very close friends who are part of a close-knit network of locals whose families got back over 150 years. There is no place in the world I'd rather be if it all falls down.
But nobody from the coastal states is getting into places like that. The area where I'm talking about is roughly halfway between 2 small towns, about 20 miles in either direction. There's only one road connecting those two towns, and believe you me, if it ever really does hit the fan, there's no way anybody who doesn't have business being there is getting up that road. At all. Unless they're driving an APC.
Outsiders will not be welcomed in those areas in the post-apocalypse. People up there are very warm, friendly, helpful, and supportive, but their kin and their neighbors come first - they will not risk their children doing without so that people who never gave a damn about them before SHTF can come up and shoot their game and squat on the few available parcels flat enough to grow crops. The way a lot of them look at it, the rest of the country has been telling them to fend for themselves all their lives, and they accept that. But now, they'll have no problem telling all those people to go fend for themselves. If there's one thing they've learned over the last couple of centuries, it's that nobody from downhill ever goes up there unless they want something from them.
Last edited by Mr. In-Between; 03-07-2017 at 07:32 PM..
Location: MA/ME (the way life should not be / the way it should be)
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So exactly how cold does it get in MT. On average days (i understand it gets cold, and -0 is regularly tossed around, but few numbers for east of the divide as i know the western section doesnt get as cold unless high up). -20, -30? Im assuming east of the divide winds might bring it down to -40, but im guessing (not on first hand), that once it gets that low a 5 degree change is not overly that much different.
So exactly how cold does it get in MT. On average days (i understand it gets cold, and -0 is regularly tossed around, but few numbers for east of the divide as i know the western section doesnt get as cold unless high up). -20, -30? Im assuming east of the divide winds might bring it down to -40, but im guessing (not on first hand), that once it gets that low a 5 degree change is not overly that much different.
I have done a lot of looking at MT, may yet move there(read, probably). record lows for areas east of the divide are in the -40's to -50's. for instance, the record RECORDED low at Lewistown, the exact geographical center of the state, is -46 degrees. That is actual temperature. When you factor in that there was likely a breeze at that time, or perhaps a howling wind, it definitely feels like more than a 5 degree change. Cold like that with any windchill has to be felt to be understood. You can crack a steel wheel by bumping a curb, or freeze your nose beyond recovery in minutes, in such conditions. By comparison, -20 on a sunny afternoon without wind feels downright balmy. I have split wood in below zero temps, and had to strip to a t-shirt to keep from sweating. At 40 below and with any breeze at all, that is impossible unless you are looking to get frostbit.
So exactly how cold does it get in MT. On average days (i understand it gets cold, and -0 is regularly tossed around, but few numbers for east of the divide as i know the western section doesnt get as cold unless high up). -20, -30? Im assuming east of the divide winds might bring it down to -40, but im guessing (not on first hand), that once it gets that low a 5 degree change is not overly that much different.
Oh, no, nothing like that. I grew up in Northern Wisconsin, and lived in Northwestern Montana, and winters were much harsher in Wisconsin (IMO). The record low temperature in Montana was -70 F, but we have to remember there's a huge difference between record temperatures and average temperatures. There's a lot of variation in Montana because it's a huge state with a lot of elevation changes, but for the most part average winter daytime temps are probably in the 20s at worst.
Extreme cold snaps seldom last very long. If Montana were on my bug-out list, I wouldn't let the winters discourage me at all.
The only issues to consider is the 170 million people that live along the East coast, mostly in the North Eastern areas. In a real SHTF that requires people to leave the city and surrounding areas and they will be heading in-land to Kentucky, Tennessee, Western New York state and to Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont, etc.. So those BOL's may not be all that great.
How far can they get?
If a "real" flying fecal fan flecker occurs, odds are that the oil pipelines will cease delivering fuel to the East Coast. By the time folks get the idea of raiding the hinterlands, they may be on foot, slogging less than 20 miles per day - and suffering casualties.
. . .
But rural America, with its family farms, may not be in good shape, either.
It might be wiser to adopt the European farming village paradigm, which is easier to defend.
From perusing Google Earth, one can see such agricultural villages around the world.
Check out Michelfeld or Bibersfeld, Germany, 49.096931° 9.677831°
on Google Earth to see an example of a countryside dotted with ag-villages. And as to "sustainability," I think you would agree that Europe has been sustaining itself for thousands of years.
Then compare that with a typical American agricultural area, dotted with isolated family farms.
For example, near the town of Hartsburg, IL. 40.249337° -89.440157°
You can see square after square of fields, with the isolated family farmhouse, each like a tiny island. Any raiding party would swiftly overcome their defenses.
Even without SHTF, it presents a sharp contrast in lifestyle and opportunity. In America's family farms, if you don't or can't farm, you're not going to last. In a farming village, you can find other vocations to pursue.
- - -
Wise Ant saith, “Better have a defensible fortified anthill, and a stock of supplies to last through the long, cold winter. Watch out for those Gestapo Grasshoppers!”
Location: MA/ME (the way life should not be / the way it should be)
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You can find other vocations in farming america, you forget rural folk still need doctors for accidents (farm work has a high amount of em per capita), lawers for legal issues, and mechanics for every farming appliance there is. When the shtf lawyers may be needed less, but others will be needed alot more.
The spread out model was more due to open land, and no lords, whereas in the feudal system lords wanted all their peasents close by, defense played into it, but alot of it was power based. Many american farm towns do have a mainstreet as well if population allows. I know for instance presque isle and the surronding area of maine has alot of farms. The spread out thing is with alot of big commercial type farms, and very far out west (were its common to have 1 or more full sections of land (640 acres).
Trump is already causing a great deal of turmoil in this country and will continue to do so whether in or out of office, but that's a topic for the politics forum. We are probably all in agreement that we live in an "interesting" time in the history of our country and that anything might happen. It doesn't hurt to be prepared...
With that out of the way, I'd say that the Cumberland area is a very good BOL location. I am originally from Kentucky and still have cousins and second cousins who live there. My grandparents grew up in the Ky mountains near the Cumberland Gap. You can buy land pretty inexpensively in the area between Richmond/Berea and the mountains proper. That's the area I would choose. The climate and the soils make it a great place to put in a huge veggie garden and can the better part of it every summer. I still remember my childhood summer vacations on my grandparent's farm outside of Richmond. The shelves in the basement always gleamed with canned tomatoes, corn, beans, blackberries - you name it. They kept a small herd of dairy cows, a calf to fatten up to be slaughtered for the beef in the fall, chickens for both eggs and meat, and about 4 or 5 pigs. My granddad grew corn and tobacco as cash crops, and I have yet to taste fresh corn on the cob that was anywhere near as good as the corn my grandfolks grew. They were thrifty, hard working and very self sufficient. In the depths of the great depression, they managed to raise 6 children and put every last one of them through the University of Kentucky. That is what it was possible to do on a small family farm in the Cumberlands region. Granted, it's hot and humid in the summer there, but nowhere near as bad as Florida. If I were even 10 years younger, I'd move back to Kentucky myself.
You can check out the mountain areas as well, but much of the land up there has been impacted by coal mining and the activities of the timber industry in the last century has caused much erosion in some areas. If considering land up in the Cumberlands proper, the wise buyer would need to visit the region in person and check it out. The people who live in the small communities of the Kentucky mountains can be skeptical of outsiders at first. But once you start talking with them and they get to know you, you'll never find a more hospitable group anywhere else in the country. They are skeptical of big government and big on self reliance. You would probably fit right in there. I'd suggest you check out the Kentucky forum which has a sub-forum of folks from Eastern Kentucky and the Kentucky mountains. If you go there as a seeker of information and not some critic of "backward hillbillies", they will gladly supply you with all sorts of good suggestions.
I'm your next door neighbor up here in Colorado and the view to the south of me appears to be increasingly grim. The population centers along the Phoenix-Tucson corridor are living on borrowed time - if for no other reason than that the water is going to run out. As the climate grows ever warmer and major urban centers like Phoenix, Tucson, and Denver continue to grow unabated, the Colorado River is already giving out. Check out the aerial photographs of Lake Mead and Lake Powell, and you will be stunned. There's no time better than now to get out. The Cumberland area is worthy of serious consideration. You are right on about that.
So exactly how cold does it get in MT. On average days (i understand it gets cold, and -0 is regularly tossed around, but few numbers for east of the divide as i know the western section doesnt get as cold unless high up). -20, -30? Im assuming east of the divide winds might bring it down to -40, but im guessing (not on first hand), that once it gets that low a 5 degree change is not overly that much different.
The coldest temperature ever recorded in the contiguous 48 states was -69.7 at Rogers Pass Montana, not far from where I work in Helena. The Lowest Temperature Extremes
This past winter saw a 2 week stretch where the high temps didn't break single digits, and the lows were in the -30 to -20 range.
Most of this winter stayed in the low 20s and teens for highs, lows were around 5-10 below at night.
The average number of days below 32 degrees is 169 days per year according to the weather guessers, but I think it's a lot more than that.
Helena averages around 40 inches of snowfall, but we passed that a long time ago this year, and it's snowing this morning with 4 inches forecast for the lower valley and a foot in the mountains for today.
West of the divide in Montana is much more temperate than the east. We get the northerly flow from Canada that really chills the air and -40 isn't that uncommon. Throw wind in on top of it and it's really cold even though the mercury doesn't drop any more, the wind chills drive that cold right through you.
When it's -40, even a small 10MPH breeze will knock the felt temp down to -66.
I know it sounds like I just want to keep people out of here, but really, there are some pretty harsh conditions and people should be aware of it before they decide to use Montana as a Redoubt.
There are reasons we don't have a lot of people here.
Countryboy has been here, and he's a survivor. I've met him and he'd do fine here, so listen to what he says about it, but the vast majority of people coming here and trying to live off grid or self sufficiently will fail. From the first settlements here through today, the majority of folks that move here leave after a year or so.
If someone is looking for a place for self sufficiency or bugging out, Montana should not be high on the list unless you are prepared to live in conditions that are pretty much as harsh as Alaska, except we're closer to the rest of the country.
Last edited by MTSilvertip; 03-08-2017 at 08:00 AM..
I can recommend a few towns to LIVE IN (as I did for 3 years) but that would give away my retirement secret. I will be moving there for the beauty, low cost of living, and easy no-hassle lifestyle. Not because I fear the zombie apocolypse.
If you guys really want a sparsely populated area east of the MS river than that would probably be in the Cohutta Wilderness in NW Georgia. 40,000 acres of heavy forest, rivers, and rugged hills and not much of anything else. Some old logging roads pearce it, that's about it. This could actually be the most isolated patch of ground in the eastern US.
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