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Old 10-14-2018, 12:52 PM
 
Location: northern Alabama
1,066 posts, read 1,264,689 times
Reputation: 2870

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My parents were just children during the great depression but it left a mark on them. They always had money hidden at home and money in a safety deposit box. My dad always laughed when someone said the banks would never have a bank holiday again.
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Old 10-15-2018, 06:52 AM
 
Location: Prepperland
18,924 posts, read 14,111,175 times
Reputation: 16637
Quote:
Originally Posted by lieqiang View Post
You said this over and over nine years ago:
How many decades are you going to say words like "inevitable" and "imminent" regarding the collapse that still hasn't happened?!
It's ongoing. The final act hasn't closed the curtain.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BUDGET...T-2015-BUD.pdf
• 2015 Debt Service $252 billion
• 2015 Unified budget deficit $564 billion
CONgress is paying old investors (debt service) with new investors' money (deficit spending). How much longer will that keep going?


To illustrate the pain of collapse, look how much hyperinflation has damaged individual prosperity.

Shopsmith multipurpose wood working tool (Mark V)
1950 - $169.50
1980 - $799.99 (370% increase)
2010 - $2999.99 (275% increase)
2012 - $3379.00 (12% increase)
2013 - $3679.00 (9% increase)
2017 - $3829.00 (4% increase)
(differential increase)
Overall price increase : 2,265 %
Or a corresponding 96% drop in buying power of the “dollar bill” from 1950-2017.

Federal Minimum Wage
1950 - 0.75 / hour
1980 - 3.10 / hour
2010 - 7.25 / hour

Hours to work (min. wage) to buy SS tool
1950 : 169.50 / 0.75 = 226 hours
1980 : 799.99 / 3.10 = 258 hours
2010 : 2999.99 / 7.25 = 413 hours
2017 : 3829.00 / 7.25 = 528 hours*
(* To add insult to injury, modern production technology reduces the amount of labor, and yet it costs MORE to buy! )


Cessna 172 Skyhawk - 4 passenger aircraft.
1956 $8,700
2010 $269,500
2018 $307,500

Hours of work (min. wage) needed to buy a plane (not including taxes deducted)
1956 - $8,700/0.75 = 11,600 hrs
2010 - $269,500/7.25 = 35,933 hrs
2018 - $307,500/7.25 = 42,414 hrs


Consider health care.
BEFORE GLORIOUS SOCIALISM (pre-1933)
AND BEFORE HEALTH INSURANCE
. . .

FCHP - We can't find the page you're looking for... (Broken link)
1930 example
In 1930, $66 bought a mom in Kansas a 10-day hospital stay and delivery of her new baby.
($4/day for the room)

http://blog.sfgate.com/tbrayer/2010/...ildbirth-1930/
$50 hospital bill for 10 day stay for childbirth and maternity care in LA

Verdugo Views: There was a time when a hospital stay cost $4 a day
($4/day for the room in a ward. A front corner room went for $10 per day.)
. . .
Wartime
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/725501821191774070/
$100 hospital bill from 1943 for a 10-day hospital maternity stay.

Post War
1947 $70 maternity bill
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/02/opinio...ne-birth-bill/

AFTER THE SOCIALIST REVOLUTION
Hospital Birth Costs in the 21st century
http://www.parents.com/pregnancy/con...ospital-costs/
On average, U.S. hospital deliveries cost $3,500 per stay.

http://www.businessinsider.com/lengt...g-birth-2016-3
How long do you stay in hospital after birth?
... health insurers are required to cover at least 48 hours for uncomplicated vaginal deliveries and 96 hours for Cesarean sections.

2 DAYS . . . roughly $1750 per day . . . versus 10 DAYS at $4 per day.

http://www.beckershospitalreview.com...s-in-2010.html
Hospital bed cost per day
United States
• State/local government hospitals — $1,625
• Non-profit hospitals — $2,025
• For-profit hospitals — $1,629

COST INCREASE : 40,725% increase ($1,629/$4)
($1,629/$4 = 407.25 X 100 = 40725%)

DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE EVERYTHING IS FINE AND DANDY?
(*Slow boiling of frogs comes to mind.)

Pick any item - housing, automobiles, fuel, food, and tell us how things are fine and dandy.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/53333347-post2.html

Last edited by jetgraphics; 10-15-2018 at 07:23 AM..
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Old 10-15-2018, 08:10 AM
 
Location: Southern Colorado
3,680 posts, read 2,948,994 times
Reputation: 4809
Some good points jg. Now our educational system is completely dominated by those who indoctrinate our youth with the principles of socialism, a system that has never worked. Think our government is far too intrusive, far too expensive now? It is a bargain relative to the backbreaking burden of socialism.

Since we force so much diversity in our educational system, how about some diversity in the politics of our teachers?
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Old 10-15-2018, 10:48 AM
 
Location: A Nation Possessed
25,480 posts, read 18,612,470 times
Reputation: 22370
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
It's ongoing. The final act hasn't closed the curtain.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BUDGET...T-2015-BUD.pdf
• 2015 Debt Service $252 billion
• 2015 Unified budget deficit $564 billion
CONgress is paying old investors (debt service) with new investors' money (deficit spending). How much longer will that keep going?


To illustrate the pain of collapse, look how much hyperinflation has damaged individual prosperity.

Shopsmith multipurpose wood working tool (Mark V)
1950 - $169.50
1980 - $799.99 (370% increase)
2010 - $2999.99 (275% increase)
2012 - $3379.00 (12% increase)
2013 - $3679.00 (9% increase)
2017 - $3829.00 (4% increase)
(differential increase)
Overall price increase : 2,265 %
Or a corresponding 96% drop in buying power of the “dollar bill†from 1950-2017.

Federal Minimum Wage
1950 - 0.75 / hour
1980 - 3.10 / hour
2010 - 7.25 / hour

Hours to work (min. wage) to buy SS tool
1950 : 169.50 / 0.75 = 226 hours
1980 : 799.99 / 3.10 = 258 hours
2010 : 2999.99 / 7.25 = 413 hours
2017 : 3829.00 / 7.25 = 528 hours*
(* To add insult to injury, modern production technology reduces the amount of labor, and yet it costs MORE to buy! )


Cessna 172 Skyhawk - 4 passenger aircraft.
1956 $8,700
2010 $269,500
2018 $307,500

Hours of work (min. wage) needed to buy a plane (not including taxes deducted)
1956 - $8,700/0.75 = 11,600 hrs
2010 - $269,500/7.25 = 35,933 hrs
2018 - $307,500/7.25 = 42,414 hrs


Consider health care.
BEFORE GLORIOUS SOCIALISM (pre-1933)
AND BEFORE HEALTH INSURANCE
. . .

FCHP - We can't find the page you're looking for... (Broken link)
1930 example
In 1930, $66 bought a mom in Kansas a 10-day hospital stay and delivery of her new baby.
($4/day for the room)

http://blog.sfgate.com/tbrayer/2010/...ildbirth-1930/
$50 hospital bill for 10 day stay for childbirth and maternity care in LA

Verdugo Views: There was a time when a hospital stay cost $4 a day
($4/day for the room in a ward. A front corner room went for $10 per day.)
. . .
Wartime
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/725501821191774070/
$100 hospital bill from 1943 for a 10-day hospital maternity stay.

Post War
1947 $70 maternity bill
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/02/opinio...ne-birth-bill/

AFTER THE SOCIALIST REVOLUTION
Hospital Birth Costs in the 21st century
http://www.parents.com/pregnancy/con...ospital-costs/
On average, U.S. hospital deliveries cost $3,500 per stay.

http://www.businessinsider.com/lengt...g-birth-2016-3
How long do you stay in hospital after birth?
... health insurers are required to cover at least 48 hours for uncomplicated vaginal deliveries and 96 hours for Cesarean sections.

2 DAYS . . . roughly $1750 per day . . . versus 10 DAYS at $4 per day.

http://www.beckershospitalreview.com...s-in-2010.html
Hospital bed cost per day
United States
• State/local government hospitals — $1,625
• Non-profit hospitals — $2,025
• For-profit hospitals — $1,629

COST INCREASE : 40,725% increase ($1,629/$4)
($1,629/$4 = 407.25 X 100 = 40725%)

DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE EVERYTHING IS FINE AND DANDY?
(*Slow boiling of frogs comes to mind.)

Pick any item - housing, automobiles, fuel, food, and tell us how things are fine and dandy.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/53333347-post2.html
I really wish more people understood what you are saying here, generally, and more specifically, about health care. We basically have two mindsets nowadays: those who champion the concept of "health insurance" and those who champion the concept of "single payer." Of course, they don't understand that the two are essentially the same besides who owns the "insurance company," and that that one concept (insurance) has absolutely decimated our health care situation. Yet, it's is the only "savior" people seem to worship: health insurance or single payer (again, one and the same besides ownership--collectivism or coerced collectivism). Nobody wants to look for alternatives.

It seems a little like turning to termites to save your home. We really need to find a solution to high healthcare costs that does not depend on collectivism. There is a reason people could afford a doctor a hundred and twenty years ago. And it had nothing to do with insurance companies... and a LOT to do with the free market. And high tech is not an excuse (I hear that one a lot). If anything high tech is an excuse for LOWER prices--because that's the way it works everywhere else.

Even fifty years ago, most medical services were reasonable enough for an average person to pay. When I was a small child, I recall being taken to the doctor/hospital for illnesses, stitches, childhood diseases, etc, and every time that I can remember, my mother or father paid cash (or check). And we weren't rich. My father was a pipefitter and even though he did have insurance of some kind (I was too young to know the specifics), he mostly didn't even bother using it (it was probably just major medical anyway). That's how cheap things were back then at the doctor's office.
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Old 10-15-2018, 12:49 PM
 
Location: SE corner of the Ozark Redoubt
8,725 posts, read 4,513,032 times
Reputation: 9103
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
I really wish more people understood what you are saying here, ...
I understand everything he is saying here, and don't care.
Nor do I care if all of the gold in Ft. Knox is lead or not.

Frankly, it won't matter.

There is a recession in our near future.
Maybe 10 months from now, maybe 30 months.
There is a total collapse in our future.
(see my post from two days ago, in this thread)
Will this recession trigger the total collapse?
I doubt it, but I don't know.

To know that, I would need to know, for each outstanding $B in bonds, what is the term, and the interest rate, and who do we owe it to. And what is our probably pension liability for each of the next 10 years? That is a granularity of knowledge I just can't get my hands on. I doubt anyone here can. It is likely that, even the federal government doesn't know the answer, since states, municipalities, and school districts all owe money too.

Then what is needed is a plan for what to do when that next recession hits. And a plan for when the total collapse hits. And a plan for "in case of some other event" (like being nuked).

And that is why I don't pay too much attention to jetgraphics.
It isn't because I don't understand what he is saying,
it is because he is providing information irrelevant to the salient questions.
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Old 11-07-2018, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Southern Colorado
3,680 posts, read 2,948,994 times
Reputation: 4809
For those who don't believe that gold and silver prices are artificially manipulated: https://needtoknow.news/2018/11/form...markets-years/
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Old 11-07-2018, 09:15 PM
 
Location: Spain
12,722 posts, read 7,532,049 times
Reputation: 22633
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
Shopsmith multipurpose wood working tool (Mark V)
1950 - $169.50
1980 - $799.99 (370% increase)
2010 - $2999.99 (275% increase)
2012 - $3379.00 (12% increase)
2013 - $3679.00 (9% increase)
2017 - $3829.00 (4% increase)
(differential increase)
Overall price increase : 2,265 %
Or a corresponding 96% drop in buying power of the “dollar bill†from 1950-2017.
You're failing with the word "corresponding" here, one isn't buying the same tool as 1950. They detail the changes right on their website:

1960 added poly-5 drive system with serpentine belt
1962 upgraded motor from 3/4hp to 1 1/8 hp
1984 upgraded to 2-bearing drive system for better stability, less wobble and runout
1985 bigger table with two floating extension tables along with connecting tubes and telescoping legs to provide over 8 feet of table width. A new larger rip fence with t-tracks for mounting accessories and ****. Other parts of the upgrade include a see-through upper saw guard (with riving knife and anti-kickback device), lower saw guard with 2-1/2" dust port and more.
1991 "C" Headstock with Red Safety Key switch
1999 Pro Fence System features two interchangeable stainless steel scales for direct-reading of rip cut widths... plus... twin locking levers... one for the infeed end of the fence and another for the outfeed end to ensure a positive, precise fence lock-down, even when working with large and / or heavy workpieces.

You're comparing a simpler machine to a mode modern, safer, and capable one as if they are the same product. They are not.




Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
Cessna 172 Skyhawk - 4 passenger aircraft.
1956 $8,700
2010 $269,500
2018 $307,500
Again you're picking something that is far more avanced with the evolution of technology and pretending it's the same thing with same cost to produce as it was 60 years ago. The differences between a 172 from 1956 and a 172S today are far too numerous to list here, anyone acting like it has the same capabilities and features is either extremely naive or being purposely deceitful.





Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
Pick any item - housing, automobiles, fuel, food, and tell us how things are fine and dandy
Sure, how about TVs? In 1956 a color console television set with a 15" screen cost $1,000.
Best Buy shows a 19" HDTV LED TV for $69.

I'll let you do the math hours worked for $1,000 in 1956 dollars versus $69 in 2018 dollars, especially given how superior a flat screen LED TV is today compared with that from 1956.


You want more things that are far cheaper we can do this all day.
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Old 11-08-2018, 02:56 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 5,090,259 times
Reputation: 5036
Quote:
Originally Posted by lieqiang View Post
You're failing with the word "corresponding" here, one isn't buying the same tool as 1950. They detail the changes right on their website:

1960 added poly-5 drive system with serpentine belt
1962 upgraded motor from 3/4hp to 1 1/8 hp
1984 upgraded to 2-bearing drive system for better stability, less wobble and runout
1985 bigger table with two floating extension tables along with connecting tubes and telescoping legs to provide over 8 feet of table width. A new larger rip fence with t-tracks for mounting accessories and ****. Other parts of the upgrade include a see-through upper saw guard (with riving knife and anti-kickback device), lower saw guard with 2-1/2" dust port and more.
1991 "C" Headstock with Red Safety Key switch
1999 Pro Fence System features two interchangeable stainless steel scales for direct-reading of rip cut widths... plus... twin locking levers... one for the infeed end of the fence and another for the outfeed end to ensure a positive, precise fence lock-down, even when working with large and / or heavy workpieces.

You're comparing a simpler machine to a mode modern, safer, and capable one as if they are the same product. They are not.




Again you're picking something that is far more avanced with the evolution of technology and pretending it's the same thing with same cost to produce as it was 60 years ago. The differences between a 172 from 1956 and a 172S today are far too numerous to list here, anyone acting like it has the same capabilities and features is either extremely naive or being purposely deceitful.






Sure, how about TVs? In 1956 a color console television set with a 15" screen cost $1,000.
Best Buy shows a 19" HDTV LED TV for $69.

I'll let you do the math hours worked for $1,000 in 1956 dollars versus $69 in 2018 dollars, especially given how superior a flat screen LED TV is today compared with that from 1956.


You want more things that are far cheaper we can do this all day.
Usually the old tools are better in a great number of cases. Elon Musk proved there is an exorbant amount of fluff built into these prices even with the upgrades when he built a turbo vacuum compressor for 10 grand and the contractor wanted a million. I believe it is causing the USA to stagnate because everyone is forced to keep reinventing the wheel because the existing tooling is grossly over priced.

So instead of a machinist or engineer working towards bigger things they have to build up their own tooling from scratch because of the exorbant expenses.
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Old 11-08-2018, 03:00 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 5,090,259 times
Reputation: 5036
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
I really wish more people understood what you are saying here, generally, and more specifically, about health care. We basically have two mindsets nowadays: those who champion the concept of "health insurance" and those who champion the concept of "single payer." Of course, they don't understand that the two are essentially the same besides who owns the "insurance company," and that that one concept (insurance) has absolutely decimated our health care situation. Yet, it's is the only "savior" people seem to worship: health insurance or single payer (again, one and the same besides ownership--collectivism or coerced collectivism). Nobody wants to look for alternatives.

It seems a little like turning to termites to save your home. We really need to find a solution to high healthcare costs that does not depend on collectivism. There is a reason people could afford a doctor a hundred and twenty years ago. And it had nothing to do with insurance companies... and a LOT to do with the free market. And high tech is not an excuse (I hear that one a lot). If anything high tech is an excuse for LOWER prices--because that's the way it works everywhere else.

Even fifty years ago, most medical services were reasonable enough for an average person to pay. When I was a small child, I recall being taken to the doctor/hospital for illnesses, stitches, childhood diseases, etc, and every time that I can remember, my mother or father paid cash (or check). And we weren't rich. My father was a pipefitter and even though he did have insurance of some kind (I was too young to know the specifics), he mostly didn't even bother using it (it was probably just major medical anyway). That's how cheap things were back then at the doctor's office.
I am just going to refuse service and die, this world is filling up quickly with some of the most greedy mother fers I could ever imagine, using every rationalization for their fleecing (its capialism, its "free market" to justify completely out of bounds behavior). Lieqiang is one of them.
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Old 11-08-2018, 04:00 PM
 
Location: A Nation Possessed
25,480 posts, read 18,612,470 times
Reputation: 22370
Couple of thoughts:

Yes, electronic, high-tech, and computer-related gadgets have certainly come down in price over the years. But that is due to the increased efficiency of the electronic/computer components, not less expensive manufacturing of the same components (who uses vacuum tubes anymore? (well, unless you're an electric guitarist). Don't get me wrong on this next statement, but it seems that the items which are least important to actual survival or productive life-sustaining work are the items that have come down in price the most. Mind you, I'm as guilty with the tech items as anyone else. Other than the fact that I hate smartphones and will never have one, I was big on tech at one time. I nearly had enough college credit to earn a degree in computer programming way back when. But at some point, I became completely disenchanted with "high tech."

I came to realize that what high-tech was doing best is either lulling the populace into a false sense of utopian security or (and) becoming an opiate of the masses (yes, I'm talking to you, smartphone), which turns peoples' attentions away from important matters such as liberty, the state of the police state, the intrusion into personal lives by agencies such as the NSA, TSA, Obamacare (which hopefully will go away), sustainability in the event that all those electronic toys go bye-bye, etc.

Essentially, computer and communications technology has become a perfect way for the government to promote dependency, be the all-seeing eye, and control everyone's minds and bodies. Unfortunately... because there are so many positive aspects as well. But they are all overshadowed.

So, if we get away from those high-tech items, the cost of "real" products (and manufactured products) such as tools (I'm talking decent, quality tool, not Chinese junk), guns, food, homemaking items, etc, have all gone way up over the years.

For instance, a good quality 36 inch tuttle tooth (or similar) crosscut saw, made in Germany or the US, will run you nearly $300. How much were they in 1900? On the other hand, you can buy a chain saw, that is absolutely worthless as soon as the gas stations close up shop, for little of nothing. Personally, I'd take (and have) the crosscut saw, and tools to keep it sharp, any day over a chain saw. Ideally, have both. When the chain saw runs out of gas after the "event," hopefully you (or your arms) won't.


And as for "free market" and "capitalism": those who slam the free market the most either cannot see or refuse to acknowledge the reason it has failed in various cases. It's not the free market system that is at fault, it is the "dark side" of the participants AND the government intruding into the system. No system can function properly with corrupt individuals/governments perverting it. The free market is based on complete liberty. With complete liberty, there are always those who abuse liberty and abuse the system. Those elements need to be expelled. Once that is done, there is no better economic system than the free market. It is liberty at its most fundamental level, but it requires honesty and integrity on the part of the participants.

Last edited by ChrisC; 11-08-2018 at 04:10 PM..
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