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A lot depends on the carbon/nitrogen ratio. I rewrote Ram Bux Singh's manual on bio-gas production back in the 1970s, before he got involved with Mother Earth News and the disaster at the Ral-Jim farm. I had to get into a lot of the nitty gritty back then. Ah, the days of the "Whole Earth Catalogue" at its prime.
Very Cool!!!
I didn't get into methane production until the 1990s. I was working with the Montana Department of Natural Resources and Montana State University on a self sustaining project utilizing waste products from a commercial operation to generate electricity.
It was a pretty sweet system, but the private funding fell through at the last minute.
Would have been fun to put into full operation.
Storage for the natural gas was always a problem due to volume and the low pressures.
Location: “Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don’t matter and those who
129 posts, read 66,866 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip
Very Cool!!!
I didn't get into methane production until the 1990s. I was working with the Montana Department of Natural Resources and Montana State University on a self sustaining project utilizing waste products from a commercial operation to generate electricity.
It was a pretty sweet system, but the private funding fell through at the last minute.
Would have been fun to put into full operation.
Storage for the natural gas was always a problem due to volume and the low pressures.
Since so many people here seem to have experience with methane digesters, is there a standard balloon size for a small farm of 2 humans and 10 pigs?
I would not recommend this process with that glass bottle to anybody. It is a recipe for disaster. There is a reason that most states will not allow you to buy gasoline in glass bottles. If the man in that video would drop that bottle and somebody hit a light switch or the furnace came on; he would not be long for this world! Even if it was a plastic bottle I would never attempt something like that inside the house; he is asking for trouble. Maybe he is standing in front of open garage doors with a fan on to blow out the fumes? But, even then, he would want a 'explosion proof' fan.
I used to be a lawnmower mechanic many years ago. And, yes, I rebuilt many carburetors that had a mix of water and fuel. But many of them were stored outside in the weather without protection.
At that time Briggs and Stranton was the largest manufacturer of motors in the world. They highly recommended Sta-Bil. And I passed along their recommendations like a good soldier. For my own use; I never used it. I have had very good luck over the years by either draining the tank and running out the residual gas or leaving the tank full to the top. I drain equipment like a generator that could go for years without ever using it. I fill to the top my seasonal equipment and I have no problems with ethanol. I do have one mower that does not like to start when it is hot so I let it cool before I again try - probably vapor lock from the ethanol. But I have all kinds of gas powered equipment to maintain my little Ponderosa.
The very worse thing anybody can do, when it comes to storing gas in equipment (other than letting it out in the rain), is to leave just a little fuel in the tank. You have a larger surface area and the gas will evaporate quicker; thus leaving residue where you do not want that residue.
Of course one wants to cycle out your old stored gas at least yearly. And, yes, the less space in their containers will lead to less evaporation. I just keep three five gallon tanks and I used the oldest one first, second oldest next and newest last. Of course many on this forum are talking about storing considerably more than 15 gallons. Regardless of how much you have turn over your stock so you always have good gas when you need it. Put it in a vehicle and refresh your stores religiously.
Location: “Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don’t matter and those who
129 posts, read 66,866 times
Reputation: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye
I would not recommend this process with that glass bottle to anybody. It is a recipe for disaster. There is a reason that most states will not allow you to buy gasoline in glass bottles. If the man in that video would drop that bottle and somebody hit a light switch or the furnace came on; he would not be long for this world! Even if it was a plastic bottle I would never attempt something like that inside the house; he is asking for trouble. Maybe he is standing in front of open garage doors with a fan on to blow out the fumes? But, even then, he would want a 'explosion proof' fan.
I used to be a lawnmower mechanic many years ago. And, yes, I rebuilt many carburetors that had a mix of water and fuel. But many of them were stored outside in the weather without protection.
At that time Briggs and Stranton was the largest manufacturer of motors in the world. They highly recommended Sta-Bil. And I passed along their recommendations like a good soldier. For my own use; I never used it. I have had very good luck over the years by either draining the tank and running out the residual gas or leaving the tank full to the top. I drain equipment like a generator that could go for years without ever using it. I fill to the top my seasonal equipment and I have no problems with ethanol. I do have one mower that does not like to start when it is hot so I let it cool before I again try - probably vapor lock from the ethanol. But I have all kinds of gas powered equipment to maintain my little Ponderosa.
The very worse thing anybody can do, when it comes to storing gas in equipment (other than letting it out in the rain), is to leave just a little fuel in the tank. You have a larger surface area and the gas will evaporate quicker; thus leaving residue where you do not want that residue.
Of course one wants to cycle out your old stored gas at least yearly. And, yes, the less space in their containers will lead to less evaporation. I just keep three five gallon tanks and I used the oldest one first, second oldest next and newest last. Of course many on this forum are talking about storing considerably more than 15 gallons. Regardless of how much you have turn over your stock so you always have good gas when you need it. Put it in a vehicle and refresh your stores religiously.
Viewers please read and pay attention to the warning disclaimer at the beginning of the video.
Yea I think the glass was just to allow the viewers to see what is happening inside of the gas can or officially gov. approved fuel storage container.
Its just for illustrative purposes only and the presenter does mention it is just an exercise. One could substitute a fuel safe 5 gallon clear plastic fuel can which has an approved lid and a gated cap with hose.
Disclaimer:
Do NOT try this at home. I also noticed that he wasn't wearing a fire protectant suit or fire mask with oxygen or oxygen substitute as everyone will agree is the only safe way to work with dangerous liquids like fuel. He is also not wearing fire protectant gel like they always wear when doing movie stunts.
So that means we should all add an approved fire suit to our preps if we intend to store gasoline as the OP asked about.
When the shtf I dont want to be unsafe.
As I understood it anyways.
But good catch and excellent info as usual.
Shout out to Taryl Dactyl
Last edited by catz&dogz; 09-29-2019 at 05:06 PM..
There are too many variables to give a standard answer. Just as an example, the production of the effluent is directly proportional to the amount of feed consumed and the size of the pigs. Larger pigs fed larger portions equals more effluent than small pigs consuming less feed.
The type of feed can also impact product the container for the raw effluent, the transfer system, the average temperature both day and night, how long the effluent is processed, any inorganic contamination, any oxygen in the environment, all can impact the final amount of gas you're trying to store.
Making methane is an easy natural process. Happens every day in every swamp in the world. Trying to control the process, harvest, refine, store and use that product gets a lot more involved.
I've seen people use a small tank to produce enough methane to burn in a cooking stove, like a camp stove, to make meals, heat water etc. using just the raw unfiltered methane. No real storage except maybe a 5 gallon plastic gas jug, and it meets their needs.
If you want enough to heat a house, run a gas range, a gas water heater, maybe a gas refrigerator or freezer, maybe run a generator to provide electricity to run your house, you're going to need a fairly complex system, and some professional designing because what you're doing is making and storing a highly flammable and potentially dangerous gas if not handled correctly.
If you want a formula to start with, figure how many pounds of effluent are produced by an individual pig per day. Each pound of effluent can produce roughly 17 cubic feet of methane over it's digestion cycle, say for example, 2 weeks until it's composted or digested into treated inert product.
Then figure how many pigs x daily production x average temperature x time of cycle to find the daily production.
Now, figure your daily projected use, and the difference between that and production to determine any surplus, and figure how many days of reserve you want to have stored in cubic feet.
Now you can decide what size balloon you need for 2 people and 10 hogs.
Location: “Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don’t matter and those who
129 posts, read 66,866 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip
Easy answer, no.
There are too many variables to give a standard answer. Just as an example, the production of the effluent is directly proportional to the amount of feed consumed and the size of the pigs. Larger pigs fed larger portions equals more effluent than small pigs consuming less feed.
The type of feed can also impact product the container for the raw effluent, the transfer system, the average temperature both day and night, how long the effluent is processed, any inorganic contamination, any oxygen in the environment, all can impact the final amount of gas you're trying to store.
Making methane is an easy natural process. Happens every day in every swamp in the world. Trying to control the process, harvest, refine, store and use that product gets a lot more involved.
I've seen people use a small tank to produce enough methane to burn in a cooking stove, like a camp stove, to make meals, heat water etc. using just the raw unfiltered methane. No real storage except maybe a 5 gallon plastic gas jug, and it meets their needs.
If you want enough to heat a house, run a gas range, a gas water heater, maybe a gas refrigerator or freezer, maybe run a generator to provide electricity to run your house, you're going to need a fairly complex system, and some professional designing because what you're doing is making and storing a highly flammable and potentially dangerous gas if not handled correctly.
If you want a formula to start with, figure how many pounds of effluent are produced by an individual pig per day. Each pound of effluent can produce roughly 17 cubic feet of methane over it's digestion cycle, say for example, 2 weeks until it's composted or digested into treated inert product.
Then figure how many pigs x daily production x average temperature x time of cycle to find the daily production.
Now, figure your daily projected use, and the difference between that and production to determine any surplus, and figure how many days of reserve you want to have stored in cubic feet.
Now you can decide what size balloon you need for 2 people and 10 hogs.
Simple right?
Yes, that is very simple, thanks.
The style I think I will use is the standard Chinese brick pit style for probably 2-4 people.
It produces enough gas from two people and a few farm animals to fill up a balloon or tube with enough gas to cook dinner and run a nat gas light until bedtime.
The old man who built the one I saw said something to the effect that you add the waste until it makes enough gas for your purposes, then stop adding.
"Just fill but dont fill too much!"
He was kind of perplexed by the interviewers insistence on a concrete recipe.
It makes me remember the days when the teachers said things like "hit the nail hard enough to drive it into the wood" and there were no follow up questions about pounds per sq inch or handle length or metallurgical analysis or the benefits of using a left handed hammer versus using a right handed hammer.
Everybody just knew the right handed hammers were clearly superior to the left handed hammers.
It wasn't debatable.
Really people don't know their left from their right these days without being told by an expert.
edit: You got me rethinking now because of the gas fridge. Thanks MTS
This is probably way off topic and should be moved to its own thread start.
Last edited by catz&dogz; 09-29-2019 at 06:41 PM..
Location: “Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don’t matter and those who
129 posts, read 66,866 times
Reputation: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip
2 weeks until it's composted or digested into treated inert product.
Just curious is the treated inert product (TIP) considered compost and does it retain its nutritional value as a plant food?
I could just look it up of course but I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on the uses of the TIP for purposes of worm food (vermiculture), fish food (aquaculture), etc.
Thanks for the info MTS
But again probably off topic and should be moved to new thread.
Just curious is the treated inert product (TIP) considered compost and does it retain its nutritional value as a plant food?
I could just look it up of course but I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on the uses of the TIP for purposes of worm food (vermiculture), fish food (aquaculture), etc.
Thanks for the info MTS
But again probably off topic and should be moved to new thread.
Probably, but we are still talking about gas abeit natural vs petrol.
Yes, the treated product is excellent soil for gardens, worm food etc. Basically it's just compost just like the bags of steer manure you buy in the garden center.
I wouldn't however use human excrement treated or not in a vegetable garden I was planning on eating from. I know that is a real debated question, but I simply wouldn't do it.
The style I think I will use is the standard Chinese brick pit style for probably 2-4 people.
It produces enough gas from two people and a few farm animals to fill up a balloon or tube with enough gas to cook dinner and run a nat gas light until bedtime.
The old man who built the one I saw said something to the effect that you add the waste until it makes enough gas for your purposes, then stop adding.
"Just fill but dont fill too much!"
He was kind of perplexed by the interviewers insistence on a concrete recipe.
It makes me remember the days when the teachers said things like "hit the nail hard enough to drive it into the wood" and there were no follow up questions about pounds per sq inch or handle length or metallurgical analysis or the benefits of using a left handed hammer versus using a right handed hammer.
Everybody just knew the right handed hammers were clearly superior to the left handed hammers.
It wasn't debatable.
Really people don't know their left from their right these days without being told by an expert.
edit: You got me rethinking now because of the gas fridge. Thanks MTS
This is probably way off topic and should be moved to its own thread start.
When dealing with explosives or highly flammable gasses, you only get one mistake. Having someone familiar with it to avoid death or destruction of your home has nothing to do with pride or figuring it out for yourself, it's just a good idea to keep yourself from being barbeque or scattered body pieces lying around the wife's rose garden.
Location: “Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don’t matter and those who
129 posts, read 66,866 times
Reputation: 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip
Probably, but we are still talking about gas abeit natural vs petrol.
Yes, the treated product is excellent soil for gardens, worm food etc. Basically it's just compost just like the bags of steer manure you buy in the garden center.
I wouldn't however use human excrement treated or not in a vegetable garden I was planning on eating from. I know that is a real debated question, but I simply wouldn't do it.
Agreed I use at least 1* degree of separation with any human waste.
Its a personal choice and I support personal choice over nanny state but my personal choice is to have a manure / hu-man-ure free fertilizer for all my consumables. I just dont want to risk a bug jumping from animal manure to human.
I hear they are having quite a concern with Rat Lung Worm in Hawaii threatening people eating leafy greens.
Rat Lung Worm -> Snail -> Leafy Green -> Human
I do sometimes use compost tea for support plants but only after its been run through a solar thermosiphon distiller for a while.
I think i have seen too many close calls in the transgenic lab to be cavalier with natural nutes.
Last edited by catz&dogz; 09-29-2019 at 07:19 PM..
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