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Old 10-06-2015, 03:26 PM
 
565 posts, read 590,897 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GatsbyGatz View Post
In Seattle, dogs are treated with nearly equal rights as people. I'd rather a lovable dog be in a Trader Joes than an annoying, crying human brat child.
One good reason not to go to Seattle
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Old 10-06-2015, 03:30 PM
 
565 posts, read 590,897 times
Reputation: 1049
Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Annie View Post
HOW DARE YOU decide that someone who is not blind or with armed service caused PTSD not entitled to be able to go out in public and to fend for him/herself!!

Who made your ignorant self the arbiter of what constitutes a disability?

I am neither blind nor have PTSD. I am deaf.
Oh boohoo, stop the crying, you're clearly looking for something to be outraged about, if you had bothered to actually read what most people here has written you would've seen that everyone has clearly said service dogs are ok and necessary, no one wants to stop you from having a service dog if you really do need one, people here are just talking about and fed up with the crazy, selfish and entitled dog owners who think their dogs are more precious than humans and constantly need to take them everywhere, even to places where dogs are not supposed to be and take advantage or an exception made for people that really do need them, like you, no one was attacking you.

Cinema cat is right, everyone is outraged about everything, it gets tiring.
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Old 10-06-2015, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Texas
236 posts, read 163,964 times
Reputation: 765
And with more and more of these questionable service dogs being brought into stores, many that Cleary lack training required of services dogs... what about those individuals with allergies to animal dander? They get to stay home?

Yes you can buy a "certification " for your yappy pup thru some shady groups since it is not that well regulated. However the store has the right to ask to see the certification if your animal isn't behaving as a trained service dog. Seems there's the easiest fix, ask to see the certification paperwork. Any one can buy a "service animal vest" there's no regulations on it.
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Old 10-07-2015, 12:17 PM
 
Location: southwest TN
8,260 posts, read 15,225,818 times
Reputation: 15141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Unicorn View Post
And with more and more of these questionable service dogs being brought into stores, many that Cleary lack training required of services dogs... what about those individuals with allergies to animal dander? They get to stay home?

Yes you can buy a "certification " for your yappy pup thru some shady groups since it is not that well regulated. However the store has the right to ask to see the certification if your animal isn't behaving as a trained service dog. Seems there's the easiest fix, ask to see the certification paperwork. Any one can buy a "service animal vest" there's no regulations on it.

Just what certification is it that a store can ask to see? You are "Cleary" or clearly misinformed. There is no certification. There are observable standards of behavior: the dog remains at the owner's side; and performs at least 2 services for its owner. These services must be learned behaviors - i.e. a dog that alerts to low blood sugar has to learn how to alert its owner.

Since there is no certification - and you would know if you informed yourself what the law (ADA) requires before jumping into a conversation where your knowledge was limited to assumptions - then how does one "buy" it?

As for allergies to animal dander, I have no answer. I suppose if one began to have sneezing or a headache, one could leave the area where the dog is or take an antihistamine. I do not mean my response to be flip or dismissive as I have suffered for 60 years with allergies and commiserate.

Being able to do things that others do such as one's own grocery shopping or simply leaving one's home is the direct result of having a service dog. Surely it's small price to pay to have to deal with the imposters. Being educated as to the law is the first defense against those who would take advantage and bring untrained Fifi into the stores.

Read the ADA before railing against the law breakers. If you don't know the law, as a business owner, how can you enforce its provisions without breaking the law?
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Old 10-07-2015, 02:36 PM
 
Location: Texas
236 posts, read 163,964 times
Reputation: 765
http://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai=C...ogregistry.org
Take Your Dog Anywhere - How To Make Your Dog A Service Dog‎
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xas Disability Law - Service Dogs
Texas Law
Requires public facilities and common transportation carriers to admit a person with a disability accompanied by a service dog for assistance and also to admit a trainer of service dogs accompanied by a dog for training purposes.
Requires evacuation, transport and temporary shelter of service animals in a disaster.
Provides a criminal penalty for those who deny access to people with disabilities because of an assistance animal. Offenses are punishable by fines of not more than $300 and 30 hours of community service.
Provides full and equal access to housing accommodations for people with disabilities with assistance animals.
Provides that people with disabilities may not be charged extra compensation for assistance animals, however, any damages caused by an assistance animal are the responsibility of the person with a disability using the animal.
State employees may obtain up to ten days of paid leave to attend a training program to familiarize themselves with an assistance dog.
Provides protection if an assistance animal is attacked, injured or killed by an individual or an individual's animal.
Provides that people with disabilities may not be required to show proof of certification for their service animal. Public establishments may only ask if the service animal is required because the person has a disability and what type of work the service animal is trained to perform.
Texas Statutes
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Old 10-07-2015, 02:43 PM
 
Location: Texas
236 posts, read 163,964 times
Reputation: 765
Just for NY which means all of those who claim the tea cup in the purse is a service dog :
Under New York Law, a service dog must be in a harness or on a leash but need not be muzzled. NY Civil Rights Law �47-b(4). 1 Moreover, a service animal need not be secured in a kennel or other container when being transported in a taxi.

NY also states : You may exclude any animal, including a service animal, from your facility when that animal's behavior poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others. For example, any service animal that displays vicious behavior towards other guests or customers may be excluded.


However the laws are way too loose..... a service dog should be trained (can be trained). And should have proper papers to back it up.

If you want a handicapped parking permit you must have a doctor SIGN that you need it and it gets approved by the State... why is a service dog any different? When TRULY needed...
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Old 10-07-2015, 03:41 PM
 
Location: Texas
236 posts, read 163,964 times
Reputation: 765
What is the difference between a psychiatric service dog and an emotional support animal? | Service Dog Central
What is the difference between a psychiatric service dog and an emotional support animal?
The difference between emotional support animals and service animals is threefold:

1. To have a service animal, a person must be so impaired as to have a disability. For example, needing glasses for poor vision is an impairment, but being unable to see with or without glasses is a disability. Having a mental illness is an impairment, but being unable to function on a minimal level because of a mental illness is a disability. Folks may have an emotional support animal due to a mental impairment if they are also otherwise disabled or elderly or they may have an emotional support animal because of a mental illness disability. Only those actually disabled by a psychiatric impairment would qualify to use a psychiatric service dog.

2. Service animals are task trained to actually do something which mitigates the person's disability. Their defined function is not to provide emotional support (affection on demand or a security blanket) but to do something the handler cannot do for themselves which allows that handler to overcome or ameliorate an inability to perform major life activities. Emotional support animals don't have to be trained, so long as they do not disturb neighbors or pose a threat to public safety.

3. A person with a disability has a right to be accompanied by a trained service dog which is assisting them in most public accommodations (places of business). A person with an impairment or a disability does not have a right to be accompanied by an emotional support animal unless individual state laws specifically grant this right, in which case it applies only in that state.

Some folks confuse Emotional Support Animals (ESAs) with Psychiatric Service Animals (PSAs). They think that "training" a dog to kiss on command or jump in their lap, or be hugged is a task qualifying the animal as a service animal. Real tasks for PSDs (psychiatric service dogs) include counterbalance/bracing for a handler dizzy from medication, waking the handler on the sound of an alarm when the handler is heavily medicated and sleeps through alarms, doing room searches or turning on lights for persons with PTSD, blocking persons in dissociative episodes from wandering into danger (i.e. traffic), leading a disoriented handler to a designated person or place, and so on.

If you look at the tasks just described (and those listed below), you will see that PSD tasks are actually very similar to tasks for persons with other disabilities. Guiding to a place and blocking from danger are common Guide Dog tasks. Signaling for an alarm is a common hearing dog task. Balancing/bracing and turning on lights are common Mobility Dog tasks. That's because they are real service dog tasks for persons whose disability happens to be due to mental illness.

"I can't bend over to pick up dropped items like housekeys because my medication makes me so dizzy I fall down when I try. My dog was trained to pick up dropped items so I could get the things I needed without injuring myself in the process."

"I become confused and disoriented when I dissociate. I wander off and become lost and cannot find my way back home. My dog was trained to a) stop me from wandering by planting me someplace until the episode passed, or b) guide me home on command."

"I wander into traffic when I am disoriented. I fear becoming 'road pizza.' My dog was trained to block me from stepping in front of moving cars, or to block me automatically at each intersection."

"I pick at my skin and pull out my hair without noticing that I am doing it because of OCD. I do it to the point that I injure myself and bleed. My dog was trained to interrupt and redirect my picking behavior toward a less harmful behavior like grooming my dog."

"When I miss my medication I become violently ill. So ill that I cannot even rise to a seated position. I vomit uncontrollably. My dog was trained to bring me my medication and a juice box so I could take it even when I am in this condition. She was also trained to clear the vomit out of my airway so I don't choke, even if I pass out."

"I sleep so soundly because of the sedating effects of my medication that I will sleep through tornado sirens and smoke alarms. I fear I will die in my sleep if I do not respond to such emergencies. My dog was trained to respond upon hearing a siren or smoke alarm by climbing all over me, licking my face, pulling off the covers, and gripping my hand in her mouth and pulling me off the bed to wake me."

"I hallucinate that I smell smoke or see a stranger/scarab/dragon/etc. My dog was trained to notify me when there was smoke or a stranger so that I could tell whether what I sensed was real or a hallucination."

"I am terrified of entering my home and am easily startled and terrified by unidentified noises. My dog was trained to search my home upon entering and notify me if anyone was present. She was also trained to alert me whenever a person approached my home."

While most handlers will tell you that they receive some emotional support from their service animal, regardless of their disability, that support or companionship is a bonus and not a justification for the animal being a service animal. It's fine to teach your dog to kiss on command or to jump into your lap, but it is not fine to claim those tricks alone make him/her a service dog.

"I can't go out alone because of social phobia; my dog makes me feel safe enough to go out to the grocery store and other places I need to go." This describes an emotional support animal, not a psychiatric service animal.

How can you tell the difference between emotional support and psychiatric tasks? Take emotion out of the equation by asking yourself what a robot might do to help you overcome a barrier to performing major life activities. Next ask yourself if a dog might be able to do the same thing. Then ask if a dog could be trained to do that thing.

Sometimes folks want emotional support so they look for a list of service dog tasks to try to justify their ESA as a PSD. This is the backwards way to select tasks and usually results in tasks which will not hold up in court. The courts have told us that tasks must: 1) be trained and not a natural behavior of the dog, 2) must mitigate the person's disability, 3) must be needed by that specific handler. Some examples that don't hold water:

-medication reminders for someone who could just as easily check a clock or set a watch alarm

-carrying medication for a person who could carry their own medication in a purse or pocket

-retrieving a newspaper for someone who doesn't subscribe to a newspaper -public access for a handler whose dog's only task is to wake them, when the person doesn't fall asleep in public (which a person with narcolepsy might actually need help in managing, but most folks would not)

-a dog who provides encouragement or affection so a person can take a test or visit a store

-an attack dog to protect a victim of assault (see also IAADP's article on PTSD)

Please note that a dog which becomes upset when the handler is upset is not "alerting" to the handler's upset. He is responding to it and doing so in an emotionally unstable way. A psychiatric service dog should be extremely stable and not be drawn into their handler's emotional state, but rather remain calm, thinking, and working in spite of their handler's upset. Vomiting, trying to drag the handler away, and acting up are all indications of emotional distress in the dog. A therapist who joins the disabled person in "freaking out" is not professional, and neither is a service dog that does so. A person in emotional distress needs a solid rock to think clearly for them and guide and help them, be that a therapist or doctor, or service dog. They do not need someone "freaking out" or overly empathizing with them. Remember that the number one reason dogs bite is out of fear not aggression. A dog put into a situation that it is emotionally unable to handle is at risk of biting, something which can result in the dog being declared vicious and put down.

Here are some quotes from US Department of Justice (DOJ) officials on the subject of emotional support animals vs service animals. Note that the DOJ is the federal agency responsible for enforcing title III of the ADA (which is what gives public access rights to persons using service animals).

"The way we look at it is what the regulation says is that a service animal is an animal that's trained to provide services for a person. So something that is just a pet is not, and we try to be broad, because there could be a whole range of services that an animal can be trained to provide, but it has to be trained to do it and it has to be doing services. Because there has been a great deal of misunderstanding and we are told by a number of guide dog users around the country of abuses that are occurring and a backlash that's happening to people with service animals because of it. When we do the regulations that I'm talking about in the fall, we're going to ask questions about this issue and be specific about this. Should emotional support animals be covered by the ADA? Should they be required to be in restaurants? Should they be required to be in public transportation? In our view, they're not covered now unless they are providing a service to the person."

John Wodatch, Chief, Disability Rights Section, Office of Civil Rights, U.S. Department of Justice (from July 17, 2001 conference)

"An emotional support animal is not going to be a service animal under the ADA unless it does meet the [task] training requirement."

Phillip L. Breen, Special Legal Counsel, Disability Rights Section, Office of Civil Rights, U.S. Department of Justice (from April 16, 2002 conference)

"Generally speaking, if we're talking about therapy, comfort, emotional support animals -- and I think those typically are used interchangeably. Those are not going to be service animals under the ADA because they haven't been trained to -- remember that three-part -- that definition, they haven't been trained to do work or perform a task for the benefit of an individual with a disability. Typically, comfort, emotional support animals by their very presence certainly performs a valuable service, but it's an innate ability. It's their mere presence. It doesn't reach the level of having been trained to do work or perform tasks."

Sally Conway, Disability Rights Section, Office of Civil Rights, U.S. Department of Justice (from April 29, 2004 conference)
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Old 10-08-2015, 01:46 PM
 
Location: North Texas
24,326 posts, read 33,572,976 times
Reputation: 27887
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinema Cat View Post
I agree. The concept of an "emotional support animal" is completely bogus. A lie.

Dog owners are a selfish brats. I see them violating the law all the time. In Santa Monica, dogs are supposed to be kept on leashes at all times, yet they violate this law. And the cops do nothing.

I see these selfish brats bring their dogs into Vons and Whole Foods and Starbucks. Usually these dogs are little "toy dogs," more a kind of rat-dog.

If you're so emotionally crippled that you need a little rat-dog with you at all times, then you belong in a straight jacket. People that emotionally/mentally crippled should not be let loose on the streets.

And if you're not that emotionally crippled, then the dog is a lie. You're just a selfish brat (usually a woman) who WANTS what she WANTS, and so you buy a bogus vest and badge, or get some therapist to lie for you.

Unfortunately, the dog owners lobby is powerful. They pressure legislators to pass laws allowing them to bring their rat-dogs onto planes and into stores.
Hey hey, we're not all bad. I have a yelpy, ill-mannered 8-lb yappy dog. I don't take him to stores with me though unless it's Petsmart or Petco. He's never been to a restaurant patio and he's never been to any other store. He's certainly never been on an airplane.

Why?

Well, because he'd bark constantly and pee on anything upright. He's fine at home, but get him out in public and he becomes a holy terror.

So I leave him at home. Common courtesy.
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Old 10-14-2015, 03:18 AM
 
Location: Portlandia "burbs"
10,234 posts, read 14,174,079 times
Reputation: 25899
My niece is probably one of those who carries her dog into stores with a bogus permit. She does that to fly, and I find it incredibly annoying. But obtaining one of those permits is quite easy, from what I've read.
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Old 10-18-2015, 10:39 PM
 
Location: Buckeye, AZ
28,031 posts, read 16,325,621 times
Reputation: 10073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinema Cat View Post
I agree. The concept of an "emotional support animal" is completely bogus. A lie.

Dog owners are a selfish brats. I see them violating the law all the time. In Santa Monica, dogs are supposed to be kept on leashes at all times, yet they violate this law. And the cops do nothing.

I see these selfish brats bring their dogs into Vons and Whole Foods and Starbucks. Usually these dogs are little "toy dogs," more a kind of rat-dog.

If you're so emotionally crippled that you need a little rat-dog with you at all times, then you belong in a straight jacket. People that emotionally/mentally crippled should not be let loose on the streets.

And if you're not that emotionally crippled, then the dog is a lie. You're just a selfish brat (usually a woman) who WANTS what she WANTS, and so you buy a bogus vest and badge, or get some therapist to lie for you.

Unfortunately, the dog owners lobby is powerful. They pressure legislators to pass laws allowing them to bring their rat-dogs onto planes and into stores.
I wouldn't go so far as to say the emotional service dogs are bunk, they do work. I just don't think they have a place in stores. If you need an emotional service dog to go with you into a store you probably have bigger problems and may do better shopping from home. It's not like that option don't exist.

That said, perhaps this was a dog trained to smell blood sugar drops. Some people with diabetes do use service dogs for that.
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