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Old 06-16-2010, 12:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RjRobb2 View Post
The game is open. You just dont understand it. The rule needs to remain the same because it is perfect the way it is. Rules change when they need to be changed. In fact, FIFA makes tweaks all the time. The offside rule is perfect how it is and that is why it isnt changing. If you alter it, you take away the thing that makes this game beautiful.

Why dont they take away the offside rule from football or make it where basketball players no longer dribble or how about MLB players get to use bigger or aluminum bats or hockey goalkeepers get to wear as big of pads as they want? These suggestions are just as ridiculous as yours.

Being that soccer is the highest youth sport in this country and nearly all the MLS teams are experiencing success with their fanbases, 99% of this country will not say good-bye to it. In fact, every World Cup gives this sport a huge boost in popularity in this country. Some of it is temporary but much of it isnt not.

The world doesnt need to cater the sport to our country. If we got our hands on it, we would ****ing ruin it. Guaranteed.
I cant argue the fact many love these 1-0 games. Fair enough. I just feel the offside rule as is inhibits teams from coming from behind. Teams never seem to come from behind in soccer..its score a goal and bottle up...yuch...whatever works for ya I guess.

I respect the game but...... The average goals per game in this WC is under 2....so on average a team scores LESS than 1 goal a game..sorry , that will never fly in this country. I think soccer and hockey (and hockey is much better since they got rid of all the trapping, holding, interference garbage AND got rid of the red line allowing more 3/4 ice passes) I gave my opinion and I stick with it. You keep saying no offsides but thats not what I said. A line like the blueline in hockey at about 1/2 to midfield on each side. Theres the friggin line, don't cross it till the ball does. The defender knows where the line is, the offensive player does AND the ref...no freakin defenders runnin up causing offsides. But NOOOOO thats too logical ..we might have 3-2 games that way...can't have that now can we?? and NOBODY wants cherrypicking. But I would think an offense should be able to score a goal from a corner kick AT THE GOAL LINE without being offside. I was rooting against Mexico but when i saw that but still felt terrible for them A JOKE...that was a disgrace and you still haven't commented on that I notice.

Oh, and if you think soccer is popular in this country then why have I never seen an MLS or whatever it is game on national TV? Even hockey gets games on national TV.
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Old 06-16-2010, 12:43 PM
 
Location: Fishers, IN
6,495 posts, read 10,827,604 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jp03 View Post
I respect the game but...... The average goals per game per team in this WC is under 2....so on average a team scores LESS than 1 goal a game..sorry , that will never fly in this country.
Really, 1-0 games in MLB are often celebrated as tremendous pitching duels.
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Old 06-16-2010, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grmasterb View Post
Really, 1-0 games in MLB are often celebrated as tremendous pitching duels.
Yeah, but the 1-0 game in baseball is much more rare than it is in soccer. If you take yesterday's MLB scores, for example, you see that there's quite a bit more scoring in baseball. In fact, the Royals put up 15 runs on the Astros yesterday.

MLB Baseball Scores - MLB Scoreboard - ESPN

Now if you look at yeterday's World Cup action, the highest number of goals was 2, scored by Brazil. The Ivory Coast and Portugal failed to score at all. The other game was a draw. The highest number of goals so far in the tournament is 4, all scored by Germany.

FIFA 2010 World Cup Scores / Results - Live Scoreboard - ESPN Soccernet

Even though baseball is higher scoring than soccer, it is not enough scoring to satisfy the appetite of the Americsn public. The sport is considered boring by many, particularly the younger generation, and revenues in the sport have been in decline for years.
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Old 06-16-2010, 12:58 PM
 
9,586 posts, read 8,918,565 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grmasterb View Post
Really, 1-0 games in MLB are often celebrated as tremendous pitching duels.
whoa!!! 1-0 games in baseball are rare...and thats why they are fun to watch..1-0 soccer games are the norm..trust me if every other baseball game was 1-0 there would be an uproar.
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Old 06-16-2010, 01:10 PM
 
9,586 posts, read 8,918,565 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Yeah, but the 1-0 game in baseball is much more rare than it is in soccer. If you take yesterday's MLB scores, for example, you see that there's quite a bit more scoring in baseball. In fact, the Royals put up 15 runs on the Astros yesterday.

MLB Baseball Scores - MLB Scoreboard - ESPN

Now if you look at yeterday's World Cup action, the highest number of goals was 2, scored by Brazil. The Ivory Coast and Portugal failed to score at all. The other game was a draw. The highest number of goals so far in the tournament is 4, all scored by Germany.

FIFA 2010 World Cup Scores / Results - Live Scoreboard - ESPN Soccernet

Even though baseball is higher scoring than soccer, it is not enough scoring to satisfy the appetite of the Americsn public. The sport is considered boring by many, particularly the younger generation, and revenues in the sport have been in decline for years.
Sorry..didnt see your post
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Old 06-16-2010, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Kansas City, MO
5,763 posts, read 9,766,829 times
Reputation: 2809
Quote:
Originally Posted by jp03 View Post
I cant argue the fact many love these 1-0 games. Fair enough. I just feel the offside rule as is inhibits teams from coming from behind. Teams never seem to come from behind in soccer..its score a goal and bottle up...yuch...whatever works for ya I guess.
It does not inhibit teams from coming from behind. Teams just have to play by the rules. You do realize that offside only gets called a handful of times in a game, right?

I have seen plenty of comebacks in soccer. Many games are far higher scoring than 1-0. There is an old saying that a 2-0 lead is the major dangerous score in soccer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jp03 View Post
I respect the game but...... The average goals per game in this WC is under 2....so on average a team scores LESS than 1 goal a game..sorry , that will never fly in this country.
First, the first games of the group round are usually lower scoring. The World Cup is played that way because a team that loses it's opening game only has an 8% change of advancing to the knockout rounds. So, teams play more conservative. The next round of games begins tomorrow and you will see the scoring start to pick up a little. Another reason the scoring is so low is that there is far more parity in the sport than there use to be.

If this country cannot get behind the sport the way it is, they dont deserve it. The game doesnt need to be altered for 1 country when the other 200 and some odd countries enjoy it the way it is. That's like changing the rules of a playground game for 1 kid when there is like 200 kids that like the rules just fine. That wouldnt happen, would it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jp03 View Post
You keep saying no offsides but thats not what I said. A line like the blueline in hockey at about 1/2 to midfield on each side. Theres the friggin line, don't cross it till the ball does. The defender knows where the line is, the offensive player does AND the ref...no freakin defenders runnin up causing offsides. But NOOOOO thats too logical ..we might have 3-2 games that way...can't have that now can we?? and NOBODY wants cherrypicking. But I would think an offense should be able to score a goal from a corner kick AT THE GOAL LINE without being offside. I was rooting against Mexico but when i saw that but still felt terrible for them A JOKE...that was a disgrace and you still haven't commented on that I notice.
Fair enough, you made a fair suggestion.

The problem is, the game doesnt need more goals. The rule is fine the way it is. Have you ever been either at a professional soccer game or at a watch party with hundreds of other soccer fans when a goal is scored. It causes an eruption like you wouldnt believe. You will never see such passion between fans. Do you know why this is? Because the sport is setup so that scoring a goal is difficult. It takes the effort of an entire team to get that perfect opportunity to score. If you increase scoring, goals become less special.

If you want to see a perfect soccer goal and a perfect reason why offsides exist, go look up Brazil's 2nd goal from last nights game versus N. Korea. That goal was the best of the tournament so far. A Brazilian player made a perfectly timed run, avoided offside and his teammate made a perfect pass to setup one of the most brilliant goals I have seen in some time.

The Mexican goal getting called back was perfectly fair. Both teams play by the same rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jp03 View Post
Oh, and if you think soccer is popular in this country then why have I never seen an MLS or whatever it is game on national TV? Even hockey gets games on national TV.

I cannot even begin to tell you how foolish this statement is.

The MLS has not just 1 but several national TV contracts. That's right. They have several national TV contracts and on any given week, there are at least 3, if not more games on national TV. Don't look now because the league is on break until June 26th for the group stages of the World Cup.

These contracts are with ABC/ESPN, Telefutura, Fox Soccer Channel, Univision, and Galavision. They are currently in talks with Versus about adding another and their contract with HDNet expired but they are looking to renew that as well.

On top of that they have an INTERNATIONAL TV contract with ESPN that shows the games all over the world.

In addition, every single team has a local TV contract so that their games are shown on standard definition and high definition as well as some teams having their games shown in a whole other channel in spanish as well.

If you want to go even further, all games are shown online too.

I could go further but I think that's enough for now.
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Old 06-16-2010, 02:34 PM
 
9,586 posts, read 8,918,565 times
Reputation: 5814
Quote:
Originally Posted by RjRobb2 View Post
It does not inhibit teams from coming from behind. Teams just have to play by the rules. You do realize that offside only gets called a handful of times in a game, right?

I have seen plenty of comebacks in soccer. Many games are far higher scoring than 1-0. There is an old saying that a 2-0 lead is the major dangerous score in soccer.



First, the first games of the group round are usually lower scoring. The World Cup is played that way because a team that loses it's opening game only has an 8% change of advancing to the knockout rounds. So, teams play more conservative. The next round of games begins tomorrow and you will see the scoring start to pick up a little. Another reason the scoring is so low is that there is far more parity in the sport than there use to be.

If this country cannot get behind the sport the way it is, they dont deserve it. The game doesnt need to be altered for 1 country when the other 200 and some odd countries enjoy it the way it is. That's like changing the rules of a playground game for 1 kid when there is like 200 kids that like the rules just fine. That wouldnt happen, would it.




Fair enough, you made a fair suggestion.

The problem is, the game doesnt need more goals. The rule is fine the way it is. Have you ever been either at a professional soccer game or at a watch party with hundreds of other soccer fans when a goal is scored. It causes an eruption like you wouldnt believe. You will never see such passion between fans. Do you know why this is? Because the sport is setup so that scoring a goal is difficult. It takes the effort of an entire team to get that perfect opportunity to score. If you increase scoring, goals become less special.

If you want to see a perfect soccer goal and a perfect reason why offsides exist, go look up Brazil's 2nd goal from last nights game versus N. Korea. That goal was the best of the tournament so far. A Brazilian player made a perfectly timed run, avoided offside and his teammate made a perfect pass to setup one of the most brilliant goals I have seen in some time.

The Mexican goal getting called back was perfectly fair. Both teams play by the same rules.




I cannot even begin to tell you how foolish this statement is.

The MLS has not just 1 but several national TV contracts. That's right. They have several national TV contracts and on any given week, there are at least 3, if not more games on national TV. Don't look now because the league is on break until June 26th for the group stages of the World Cup.

These contracts are with ABC/ESPN, Telefutura, Fox Soccer Channel, Univision, and Galavision. They are currently in talks with Versus about adding another and their contract with HDNet expired but they are looking to renew that as well.

On top of that they have an INTERNATIONAL TV contract with ESPN that shows the games all over the world.

In addition, every single team has a local TV contract so that their games are shown on standard definition and high definition as well as some teams having their games shown in a whole other channel in spanish as well.

If you want to go even further, all games are shown online too.

I could go further but I think that's enough for now.
Well, first off thanks for answering with thoughtful solid answers..I may not agree with you on much but at least we can see each others points.

Understand this, I would love to embrace soccer i think its a great game. I do not agree its national at this point. Soccer like hockey has a cult following here. You either love it or could care less. I know not ONE person who could name who won the MLS this year and I know tons of sports fans. I think its great you want the game to grow..but it just won't become like basketball or football or even baseball for that matter. It COULD definitely reach hockey status here but hasn't yet.

I think the U.S.A getting to the knockout round will spur interest..but my gut says this is more of a pride for U.S.A thing than a soccer thing. The U.S.A / Canada medal game in hockey was HUGE here for the same reason. People were rooting for their country as much as for the hockey itself. As soon as that ended those of us that like hockey kept watching...the rest of the country put it on the shelf until the next Olympics...not fair but in this country hockey and soccer are the ugly stepchild of sports. Its the way it is.
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Old 06-16-2010, 03:26 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,352 posts, read 26,367,482 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RjRobb2 View Post
Wow, you could not make anymore naive of a statement if you tried.

What if we took away the offside rule in football? The receivers would just stand in the end zones and every play would consist of hail mary's.

The same thing would happen in soccer. The forwards would just stand by the goal and the ball would be kicked back and forth to the goals and the excitement of the game would be taken away.
I'm still trying to wrap my mind around this. Although the football analogy is not a particularly good one, I understand the point you are making.

Take basketball, for example. Imagine the Celtics sticking Kevin Garnett right near the basket for the entire game, tossing him the ball after rebounds, allowing easy uncontested baskets play after play. Now the Lakers could take their chances having a one man advantage on offense, but realizing that they're giving up too many easy baskets, Phil Jackson would probably just have Pau Gasol defend Garnett at the other end of the floor, taking away his chance at the uncontested layup. The Celtics could try to stick two guys back, but then the Lakers could send back an extra defender. The game would quickly devolve into a chaotic mess with players tossing the ball from one end of the court to the other, hoping to score an easy basket, right? But this does not happen. Both teams would realize the futility of this strategy and still work at executing a half court offense; any "advantage" the Celtics had by having a player by the basket has been negated by the Lakers positioning a defender near the basket as well. However, both teams would still take advantage of sleeping defenders by throwing long passes down court when appropriate.

Why would soccer be any different? Is it the size of the field? That could be a factor, but you also have twice as many players as you do in basketball. The long pass in basketball has not resulted in the deterioration of shooting, dribbling and passing skills. That's the argument I hear most from proponents of the offside rule, but I just don't see how that would be the case. In basketball, the long pass simply allows you to punish the lazy defender, and it forces everyone on the court to be alert. I just can't imagine a game where the refs called back a Lebron James breakaway slam dunk because there wasn't a defender behind him when the pass was thrown.

I'd be interested in a genuine response to this post.
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Old 06-17-2010, 08:48 AM
 
Location: Kansas City, MO
5,763 posts, read 9,766,829 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I'm still trying to wrap my mind around this. Although the football analogy is not a particularly good one, I understand the point you are making.
I am really not sure how it isnt a good analogy. The point of the rule is the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Why would soccer be any different? Is it the size of the field? That could be a factor, but you also have twice as many players as you do in basketball. The long pass in basketball has not resulted in the deterioration of shooting, dribbling and passing skills. That's the argument I hear most from proponents of the offside rule, but I just don't see how that would be the case. In basketball, the long pass simply allows you to punish the lazy defender, and it forces everyone on the court to be alert. I just can't imagine a game where the refs called back a Lebron James breakaway slam dunk because there wasn't a defender behind him when the pass was thrown.
You make some good points.

Have you ever seen indoor soccer? In indoor soccer there is no offside rule. Some of the more higher scoring teams in indoor soccer history have been so because of the no offside.

Case in point - the mid-90s St. Louis Ambush. They had a forward named Mark Moser. He was one hell of a goal scorer but he was also a heavy smoker and just overall lazy but he won scoring titles even though he wasnt much of an athlete. He would rarely every cross into his team's defensive end. He would sit and wait for the ball to be turned over and just receive it and be either one on one with the keeper maybe two on one with a defender. He wouldnt always score but he scored a ton of goals this way. I once saw him score 7 goals in a playoff game against my KC Attack, all by the means of cherry picking.

A similar thing would happen in outdoor soccer if offside were eliminated.

Both the size of the field and the number of players are part of that. The more players on the field, the less important each individual player become. So, a team could afford to have one less player defend or even 2 less players and allow them to stay up near the box without having much impact. I have seen teams that lost 2 players to red cards hold their own against a full strength team. It isnt uncommon for a team down a man to play as though they havent lost anyone.

As competitive as soccer as become around the world, teams will do whatever it takes to get an edge. An example of this is diving which has become very prevalent in recent years and is scarring the game. If you allow cherry picking, it will happen. In fact, I could foresee teams signing players that are designed just for that and higher quality athletes losing their jobs for the role of cherry picker. I could also forsee less quality keepers being signed with huge legs that could place the ball as close to the opposing box as possible.

The offside rule is the second most important rule of the game behind the handball rule. The offside rule is what forces the game to be so beautiful. We see goals such as Brazil's second goal in the game the other day because of the offside rule.
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Old 06-17-2010, 08:58 AM
 
9,586 posts, read 8,918,565 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RjRobb2 View Post
I am really not sure how it isnt a good analogy. The point of the rule is the same.



You make some good points.

Have you ever seen indoor soccer? In indoor soccer there is no offside rule. Some of the more higher scoring teams in indoor soccer history have been so because of the no offside.

Case in point - the mid-90s St. Louis Ambush. They had a forward named Mark Moser. He was one hell of a goal scorer but he was also a heavy smoker and just overall lazy but he won scoring titles even though he wasnt much of an athlete. He would rarely every cross into his team's defensive end. He would sit and wait for the ball to be turned over and just receive it and be either one on one with the keeper maybe two on one with a defender. He wouldnt always score but he scored a ton of goals this way. I once saw him score 7 goals in a playoff game against my KC Attack, all by the means of cherry picking.

A similar thing would happen in outdoor soccer if offside were eliminated.

Both the size of the field and the number of players are part of that. The more players on the field, the less important each individual player become. So, a team could afford to have one less player defend or even 2 less players and allow them to stay up near the box without having much impact. I have seen teams that lost 2 players to red cards hold their own against a full strength team. It isnt uncommon for a team down a man to play as though they havent lost anyone.

As competitive as soccer as become around the world, teams will do whatever it takes to get an edge. An example of this is diving which has become very prevalent in recent years and is scarring the game. If you allow cherry picking, it will happen. In fact, I could foresee teams signing players that are designed just for that and higher quality athletes losing their jobs for the role of cherry picker. I could also forsee less quality keepers being signed with huge legs that could place the ball as close to the opposing box as possible.

The offside rule is the second most important rule of the game behind the handball rule. The offside rule is what forces the game to be so beautiful. We see goals such as Brazil's second goal in the game the other day because of the offside rule.
You'd get the same thing with a solid offsides line....
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