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Old 07-14-2010, 09:19 AM
 
Location: Kansas City, MO
5,763 posts, read 9,767,902 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
Yes, it will damage soccer's image here. It already has. And please, "acting" in football and basketball is not nearly as blatant as it is in soccer and you know it. Acting like a mortally wounded animal when you've barely been touched (or haven't been touched at all) isn't tolerated in any sport that's popular here. Not by the players and certainly not by the fans -- you'll get your ass booed straight off the playing field. And it won't be tolerated in soccer either.
The only reason they dont do it here is because it isnt as advantageous in those sports as it is in soccer. If it was, it would be just as blatant. If you think otherwise, you are a fool.

We live in an age where athletes will do anything to get ahead. They will pump their bodies with chemicals, put motors in their bikes, grease their bodies so it is hard to tackle, and a number of other things.

Football players lay on the field late in games to kill time acting like they are really hurt when they are not. It got so bad they had to make a rule that takes a timeout from a team for injuries under the 2 minute warning.

Flailing around in the NBA has become a problem too.

It has nothing to do with what the fans will or will not tolerate. In the US, we love a sport where players jump around and celebrate like crazy like school children and prance around like little girls whenever they make a standard play they are SUPPOSE to make. If we tolerate that, we will tolerate anything.

I am not saying diving isnt a problem in soccer because it is. But, that has nothing to do with it's popularity here. As I said before, every sport has an area where athletes take advantage. Also, diving in MLS is not near as big of a problem as it is on the international level.
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Old 07-14-2010, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Chicago
38,690 posts, read 89,401,162 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RjRobb2 View Post
The only reason they dont do it here is because it isnt as advantageous in those sports as it is in soccer. If it was, it would be just as blatant. If you think otherwise, you are a fool.
Thank you for making my point for me. It isn't advantageous, so it isn't done. "Flailing around" in the NBA has become a problem? Are you serious? NBA basketball has become an increasingly more physical game where the degree of contact tolerated has grown considerably. And no, football players do not lay on the field late in the game and pretend they're hurt. You know why? Because late in the game, their side will be charged with a time out. So if someone is lying there acting like they're in pain, it's because they are in pain. See, other sports actually do things to discourage gaming the system to protect the integrity of the sport. Something soccer needs to do as well before they gain mainstream acceptance here.
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Old 07-14-2010, 09:50 AM
 
Location: Kansas City, MO
5,763 posts, read 9,767,902 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
Thank you for making my point for me. It isn't advantageous, so it isn't done. And no, football players do not lay on the field late in the game and pretend they're hurt. You know why? Because late in the game, their side will be charged with a time out. See, other sports actually do things to discourage gaming the system to protect the integrity of the sport. Something soccer needs to do as well before they gain mainstream acceptance here.

It's adventageous because of the way the sport is played. You have 20 players playing on an open field with constant flow and certain fouls for contact, it is going to happen. You can't change that because that is the sport.

The only thing they can do is make more severe penalties for diving. I have no doubt that once Sepp Blatter is gone, the new chief will make those changes.

Players still do lay on the field hurt late in games even with the timeout rule. Until they made that rule, in happened in practically every single NFL game. Defensive Players also lay on top of offensive players when doing a no-huddle late in the game to stop them from getting to the line of scrimmage in a timely matter to kill more time which is another form of deception and players stretching the rules.

If you think NFL or NBA players and coaches dont do everything they can to try to cheat the system without getting caught, you are kidding yourself. Just look at the Patriots and the taping of the opponents practices as an example.

Also, NBA players still flail around when they didnt get touched. There just isnt as much fouling in basketball so they dont do it as much.

You're acting like American sports leagues have more integrity than soccer. That's laughable considering what has gone on here for the last 10 years. There is practically a daily report of an athlete somewhere in the US doing something stupid or attempting to cheat.
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Old 07-14-2010, 10:05 AM
 
Location: Chicago
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You and I are obviously watching different NBA games if you think they flail around without being touched. If NFL defensemen lay on top of the ball carrier long enough to interfere with the refs trying to set up the next down, they get charged with a penalty and the clock stops. When the Patriots were caught videotaping, it was an enormous scandal and the Patriots were sanctioned to the tune of $750,000. You know why? Because we don't put up with crap like that here. So yeah, American sports leagues do have more integrity than soccer, because they actually have a system of sanctions and penalties rather than rewards for people who try to game the system. And soccer will not gain mainstream acceptance here until it undoes the damage it's done to its reputation.

Glad to hear that there isn't as much flopping in the MLS. Gee, wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that American fans won't put up with that crap. But all the flopping people witness in World Cup play -- which notwithstanding the MLS is how most Americans get their exposure to professional soccer -- absolutely has damaged soccer's reputation here.
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Old 07-14-2010, 10:17 AM
 
Location: Kansas City, MO
5,763 posts, read 9,767,902 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
You and I are obviously watching different NBA games if you think they flail around without being touched. If NFL defensemen lay on top of the ball carrier long enough to interfere with the refs trying to set up the next down, they get charged with a penalty and the clock stops. When the Patriots were caught videotaping, it was an enormous scandal and the Patriots were sanctioned to the tune of $750,000. You know why? Because we don't put up with crap like that here. So yeah, American sports leagues do have more integrity than soccer, because they actually have a system of sanctions and penalties rather than rewards for people who try to game the system. And soccer will not gain mainstream acceptance here until it undoes the damage it's done to its reputation.
Linemen lay on top of offensive players all the time late in games during no huddle without penalties. It happens practically every game.

Guess what? FIFA and leagues hand out penalties too. Fines and suspensions are not uncommon.

If you think American sports players, coaches, and teams have more integrity, you are living in a dream world. I have spent a portion of my life working in professional sports. That industry in this country has a complete lack of integrity. If you think otherwise, you are living in a bubble. Turn on ESPN and I am sure you will hear some news story about someone, somewhere doing something deceitful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
Glad to hear that there isn't as much flopping in the MLS. Gee, wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that American fans won't put up with that crap. But all the flopping people witness in World Cup play -- which notwithstanding the MLS is how most Americans get their exposure to professional soccer -- absolutely has damaged soccer's reputation here.
The lack of diving in MLS isnt so much do to fans as it is the athletes that play in the league. Certain countries are more known for diving than others. Americans, Canadians, Caribbean, and many of the other nationalities that play in the league are not really known for it.

The World Cup damaged soccer's reputation? Have you not paid attention to anything over the last month? The TV ratings of the World Cup, surveys and pretty much every single thing out there would prove you wrong.

The World Cup was so popular in the US that ESPN is considering starting a soccer specific network. By the way, that would be the third soccer specific network to exist in the United States.

I know countless people that watched the World Cup and have become fans of the sport over the last month. I have a list of people asking me about how to get tickets to Wizards games that have never been before and are now interested.

Damaged reputation? Seriously? Look around.

Every sport has it's faults. If you think the traditional American sports are above soccer in this category, you are clueless.
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Old 07-14-2010, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Cook County
5,288 posts, read 6,378,911 times
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How many times are you going to use this type of phrase:

"<Insert what you think>, if you don't agree you are an idiot"

Its like the poorest form of debate and it is your go to move. And no, linemen do not lay around and cuddle in the NFL all the time. I don't have a horse in this race, but if you think that the way world cup players flopping is comparabe to the way American athletes seek an edge, then you're living in a bubble (do you see what I did there)
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Old 07-14-2010, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Kansas City, MO
5,763 posts, read 9,767,902 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orangeish View Post
How many times are you going to use this type of phrase:

"<Insert what you think>, if you don't agree you are an idiot"

Its like the poorest form of debate and it is your go to move. And no, linemen do not lay around and cuddle in the NFL all the time. I don't have a horse in this race, but if you think that the way world cup players flopping is comparabe to the way American athletes seek an edge, then you're living in a bubble (do you see what I did there)

I never called him an idiot. I never call anyone an idiot unless you are someone like Expect and truly be deserved to be called one. I dont have any issues with people disagreeing with me. I just expect them to be factual about it. I said if he didnt realize the type of stuff that was going on in American sports that showed lack of integrity, he was clueless and that's true. As a hardcore sports fan and someone that has worked in the sports business, I can attest to the kind of **** that goes on on a daily basis in sports all over this country and all over the world. Hell, anyone with ESPN can tell the kind of **** that goes on in American sports that shows a complete lack of integrity. He seems to think that American sports is squeaky clean and it's not. We have Congress looking into drug use in baseball. Trying to pass bills to make College Football determine a fair champion.

Yes, NFL players do it all the time. I specifically remember a linemen of the Jets doing this to the Chargers last year in the playoffs. No calls, no fines, no suspensions. It is a very common thing in the NFL and if the rule had not been made to take a timeout from players, they would be faking injuries non-stop. Players still fake injuries in the NFL when it is advantageous to do so. WR and CB pull on their jerseys to the ref after the play trying to get interference flags when there was none. NBA players still take dives to get charging calls. They flail on a clean block attempting to get fouls. This kind of **** happens in all sports. Swimmers will grease their bodies attempting to get an edge. Cyclist dope with different things.

That's my entire point. If it is advantageous to do so and they think they can get away with it, athletes in all sports, all over the world will stretch the rules. I dont really think anyone can argue that with all the **** that has gone on in the sports world over the last few years.

Also, FIFA has taken measures to reduce diving. Just 5 years ago there was no rules or penalties against it. Now the official has discretion to give a yellow card for simulating a foul. Unfortunately, it is not used nearly enough. I believe the next step will be reviews of games and suspensions and/or fines.
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Old 07-14-2010, 07:26 PM
 
Location: Chicago
38,690 posts, read 89,401,162 times
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No, but you did call me a fool because I'm not buying your exaggerations about how the same sort of flopping and whining goes on in American sports like it goes on in soccer. That's BS and we both know it, and it's BS for the reason you state below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RjRobb2 View Post
Also, FIFA has taken measures to reduce diving. Just 5 years ago there was no rules or penalties against it. Now the official has discretion to give a yellow card for simulating a foul. Unfortunately, it is not used nearly enough. I believe the next step will be reviews of games and suspensions and/or fines.
Thank you for making my point for me, yet again. American sports have already taken steps to curb this kind of crap. FIFA is behind the ball. You know it, I know it, everyone who watches a World Cup soccer match knows it. Soccer players have a well-deserved reputation as ******* because their exaggerations far exceed anything that goes on in American sports. And that's why Americans in particular are so turned off by it. And while you can continue to pretend it has not damaged soccer's reputation here, when you ask people here why they don't like soccer, the most frequently given reason is "it's boring/not enough scoring," and then right behind it is "they're a bunch of flopping *******."

Personally I shake my head by the tiny level of contact that draws even a legitimate foul. When I played youth soccer we were given a lot more latitude to be aggressive than these full-grown adults are. Anything went as long as you made a legitimate play for the ball (rather than the player) and it didn't involve a high kick.

Last edited by Drover; 07-14-2010 at 07:36 PM..
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Old 07-14-2010, 09:36 PM
 
1,645 posts, read 4,019,471 times
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MLS is a major American soccer organization that has very little flopping/ diving. Support your domestic league if the theatrics of la liga or serie a is so traumatizing.
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Old 07-15-2010, 08:51 AM
 
Location: Kansas City, MO
5,763 posts, read 9,767,902 times
Reputation: 2809
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
No, but you did call me a fool because I'm not buying your exaggerations about how the same sort of flopping and whining goes on in American sports like it goes on in soccer. That's BS and we both know it, and it's BS for the reason you state below:
You are a fool if you think American sports is as clean as you claim it is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
American sports have already taken steps to curb this kind of crap. FIFA is behind the ball. You know it, I know it, everyone who watches a World Cup soccer match knows it.
I agree and disagree with this statement and it also helps support one of my points.

The leadership of the NBA, NFL, and MLB have had to make rules to stop these types of things from going on. Even so, they still happen. Which brings me to my point, the athletes in these sports will do whatever they can to try and gain an edge even if it is unethical just like soccer players do with diving. It takes the leadership of the leagues to make rules to stop it. The athletes are the same. I have said this in every post regarding this topic and you continue to ignore it, all athletes in all sports all over the world will do things to give them an edge. This includes diving, taking PEDs, put motors in bikes, laying on your opponent so they cant get up, etc.

If MLB didnt finally put there foot down on steroids, players would still be juicing their hearts out. Hell, the league knew about it and didnt do jack **** until it got out to the public. If the NFL didnt change the rule on charging a timeout for injuries under 2 minutes, players would still be doing it. If the Patriots recording if practices didnt get released to the public, they NFL never would have punished them at all. Just think about the crap that goes on behind the scenes that the public never hears about or never sees.

I've worked in professional sports. I've spent significant amount of time on the sidelines of NFL games. **** goes on that fans never even know about all the time. If you think these sports are cleaner than International Soccer then you don't know the truth at all. NFL players try to gouge each others eyes, twist ankles, and other crap to get good players from opposing teams on the sidelines. Most of this crap goes on after the whistle has blown. Do you think this **** is legal and ethical and any different than diving?

Can you really deny that? The athletes in those leagues are no different than the athletes on the soccer field. They are doing what they can to get an edge. That is just what the sports world has become in EVERY SPORT.

Hell, the Chinese are using under aged gymnast in the Olympics. Swimmers are greasing their bodies.

Athletes all over the will stretch the rules and cheat. International soccer is no different from any other sport.

I do agree that FIFA is behind the ball. The leadership in FIFA makes up an extremely small percentage of the soccer faithful in this world and most want to see diving abolished but until Sepp Blatter steps down and a new generation takes over, it is part of the game. Just like steroids were part of baseball for years before preventative measures were taken. The NFL still has not come under fire for steroid use. Do you think those players are clean?

If you really, truly believe that these sports are as clean as your post imply, you really need to wake up. I'm not trying to insult you, I'm really not. But, this is the truth. Every sport has an area(s) where athletes stretch the rules and try to gain an edge. ALL OF THEM. Deny it all you like but it's a fact.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
Soccer players have a well-deserved reputation as ******* because their exaggerations far exceed anything that goes on in American sports. And that's why Americans in particular are so turned off by it. And while you can continue to pretend it has not damaged soccer's reputation here, when you ask people here why they don't like soccer, the most frequently given reason is "it's boring/not enough scoring," and then right behind it is "they're a bunch of flopping *******."
I've spent my entire life promoting soccer. I've talked to thousands of people about the sport and gotten feedback on what they like and do not like. Flopping and diving is rarely brought up. It is not the 2nd most common reason and not even close to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
Personally I shake my head by the tiny level of contact that draws even a legitimate foul. When I played youth soccer we were given a lot more latitude to be aggressive than these full-grown adults are. Anything went as long as you made a legitimate play for the ball (rather than the player) and it didn't involve a high kick.
If that tiny level of contact disrupts skillful play, it is going to be a foul. Soccer is a game of skill. If you want to play defense, use skill and not thuggery.

Also, what may seem like a tiny level of contact is not tiny at all. I have seen leg bones snapped in half and protruding out of skin from "tiny level of contact". When you are messing around with people's unprotected ankles and legs, a tiny level of contact can end someone's career.
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