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Old 05-01-2011, 12:25 AM
 
Location: Kansas City, MO
5,763 posts, read 9,753,801 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paull805 View Post
well why did you put bayern munich up as the only team then? and portugal has 4 quality teams, porto are the form team of europe at the moment, look you can watch what you want! but don't try and convince me that the german league is more exiting than the EPL (''dreadfully boring!'' haha funniest thing i have ever heard!) your league is just in its infancy i guarantee that a few teams will break off and dominate

The MLS is setup so that teams cannot break off and dominate. It is a single entity structure with a salary cap. It is a structure that European leagues have taken notice of and I have seen several articles about how European leagues could take concepts from MLS and implement them into their leagues. A salary cap could really help those leagues avoid the spending competitions that sometimes do more to determine who wins the leagues than the actual games played.
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Old 05-01-2011, 12:33 AM
 
Location: Kansas City, MO
5,763 posts, read 9,753,801 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paull805 View Post
seriously are some of you trying to convince people that europe has boring football?! hahaha numbers talk people look at the amount of fans, and the numbers of tv viewers around the world, the EPL is without doubt the best league in the world, and your argument that because only a few teams win it each year doesn't stick, otherwise the amount of people that watch it would decrease right?! oh wait its rising year on year? weird one lol

I dont think you are understanding what he is saying. As far as the quality of the games and level of talent, the EPL, La Liga, and Serie A are the best in the world. But, as far as competition between teams they are most certaintly near the bottom. How many different teams have won the EPL since it was formed 20 years ago? That is the point he is trying to make. There are only a handful of teams that truly have a chance to win the league and that takes a lot of the enjoyment of following those leagues. Sure, any soccer fan enjoys watching those games but when it comes to following the competition throughout the league, it isnt as fun as watching a league where more than half of the league or perhaps the whole league could win it. Do you enjoy a movie as much if you know how it is going to end?

At the start of the EPL season, how many teams does anyone predict to win the league? For most of the leagues history, it has been four or maybe even three. Now, you might be able to add Tottenham and Man City in there but recently it has really only been Chelsea and Man U.

In MLS, 3/4 of the league could win the Supporters Shield and nearly the whole league is in the hunt for the playoffs until the last couple of weeks of the season. That's exciting as you see more than a dozen teams compete to actually win something rather than watch 3 or 4 teams compete for the title and possibly only two by the last few weeks.

There is a difference between enjoying the level of play like we do for the EPL and enjoying the overall competition of the league and that is the point he is trying to make.
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Old 05-01-2011, 07:13 AM
 
Location: Scotland
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well what is more exiting than watching the best football?!
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Old 05-01-2011, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Tejas
7,551 posts, read 16,400,231 times
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I would take EPL setup vs the MLS Playoffs any day. Lack of relegation makes it extremely boring if you know your team wont make the playoffs too. While MLS standard of play is improving its lack of structure with promotion / relegation sucks balls.
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Old 05-01-2011, 11:43 AM
 
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The problem is not just a matter of quality but of competition and lack of excitement from lack of competition.

It really depends on your viewpoint.

For some Yanks stateside, I think many soccer fans who don't watch MLS stick with the Big Euro Leagues.

Now similar to stateside sports, there is less a tendency now to blindly root for a "local" team out of loyalty. People like stars, where stars land, thats where people will pick their team loyalty. I am sure places like Valencia, Marseille and even Ajax have strong stars. However the biggest best and brightest stars seem to consolidate in the biggest clubs of the 4 top nations.
Or more widely, you can look at the old G-14.

Why wouldn't they lean towards Real or Inter or ManU, they have the best stars and the best records and history and there fore play the best football.

Plus it isn't as if it's YOUR team so what do you need to worry about, you really don't have that much emotional investment to loose if one team wins it or not. After all from top to bottom, these leagues are heads over everyone else with skilled exciting soccer being played even during relegation bouts. No need to over analyze just chill out and enjoy, right?

==========================================

Now as for the contrarians,

They are largely American who are used to leagues where there isn't as much consolidation of talent at the top of a league (even the often maligned baseball has had a wide variety of winners in the past 15 years).

They legitimately take issue with the idea of becoming invested in a LEAGUE, where only 2-4 teams can be counted on to actually have a real chance to win, due to talent gap between them and the rest of the league. Frankly, such gaps (IMHO) don't exist to nearly the same degree in Stateside sports leagues due to various reasons. (with the occasional Yankees/Lakers exception)

Not to mention the distance, warping the real relationship between team and fan. To a European, they can say "why complain when you can watch the best soccer?" The Europeans have a built in advantage because of how much CLOSER they are to the teams and UEFA league, it's THEIR league not ours. Frankly, I'd love to go to other countries and see just what Fulham, Napoli, Hamburg fans etc. think about the relative power consolidation and how it's UNLIKELY to change.

Now take me for example, I appreciate the UEFA it is in fact the best soccer in the world. But no matter what I do, I just can't really get behind the idea of investing heavily in a foreign team. I don't poopoo those who don't but I can't, at least in the very top heavy UEFA. There are less surprises (in who comes out on top) as opposed to the structure in our home grown leagues. Americans have grown predisposed to these surprises and like them.

===========================================

Simply put, it just doesn't seem that high level talent is SPREAD AROUND within individual leagues as much as it used to, before the champions league era. Therefore leading to less winners and surprises, it becomes self fufilling prophecies.

As for me? I admire UEFA, but don't see me getting too invested in the individual league. I'll keep one eye open until the Champions League starts because to me that's more interesting of a competition. What's more the first half of UEFA leagues cuts into my NFL time.

I'm looking more southward now towards the Latin Leagues and Copa Liberatadores. It's not the absolutely BEST football but it is entertaining. Brazil in particular has about SEVEN big clubs as opposed to two. Argentina is more than Boca-River than meets the eye as well. Not to mention Mexico and it's wide variety of teams outside of the Chivas-America duo. Plus the Copa Lib seems really fun as well.

And MLS, I'll follow my local team and support the league but then again, due to seeing the UEFA and Latin leagues you can't mock those who go for a better product for their entertainment dollars. US Soccer has a LOT of kinks to work out before it can compete for those non-MLS fans.
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Old 05-01-2011, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Scotland
7,972 posts, read 10,101,874 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waltlantz View Post
Not to mention the distance, warping the real relationship between team and fan. To a European, they can say "why complain when you can watch the best soccer?" The Europeans have a built in advantage because of how much CLOSER they are to the teams and UEFA league, it's THEIR league not ours. Frankly, I'd love to go to other countries and see just what Fulham, Napoli, Hamburg fans etc. think about the relative power consolidation and how it's UNLIKELY to change.

Now take me for example, I appreciate the UEFA it is in fact the best soccer in the world. But no matter what I do, I just can't really get behind the idea of investing heavily in a foreign team. I don't poopoo those who don't but I can't, at least in the very top heavy UEFA. There are less surprises (in who comes out on top) as opposed to the structure in our home grown leagues. Americans have grown predisposed to these surprises and like them.

===========================================

Simply put, it just doesn't seem that high level talent is SPREAD AROUND within individual leagues as much as it used to, before the champions league era. Therefore leading to less winners and surprises, it becomes self fufilling prophecies.

As for me? I admire UEFA, but don't see me getting too invested in the individual league. I'll keep one eye open until the Champions League starts because to me that's more interesting of a competition. What's more the first half of UEFA leagues cuts into my NFL time.

I'm looking more southward now towards the Latin Leagues and Copa Liberatadores. It's not the absolutely BEST football but it is entertaining. Brazil in particular has about SEVEN big clubs as opposed to two. Argentina is more than Boca-River than meets the eye as well. Not to mention Mexico and it's wide variety of teams outside of the Chivas-America duo. Plus the Copa Lib seems really fun as well.
first off, fulham were in the final of the europa league last year only to be beaten in extra time and could finish in 7th place witch will give them another shot at the europa league next year (they will more than likely get a spot through the fair play table anyway), napoli will finish the season either 2nd or 3rd in serie a, thus competing in the champions league next season, so ask their fans if they are happy, i know what the answer to that would be! and hamburg have a great team with top players and if they can't challenge for the title that's the players and managers fault, they have players like eljero elia, heiko westermann, ze roberto, mladen petric and ruud van nistelrooy, they can even send quality players like marcus berg on loan! he is a great player, if they can't challenge then that's not the structure of the leagues fault it is their fault! they have the players to be a top side. so theirs only 2 big clubs in the EPL are they?! man united, chelsea, arsenal, man city and spurs (who are becoming more of a threat every year) and liverpool (who i tip to do well next year and have been in 2 champions league finals in recent years and won one) and in the brazil league sao paulo won it 3 years on the bounce from 06-08, but teams got on with it and sure enough another team managed to win it, it takes time for a team to get as good as the big clubs in england but if you stick at it you can build a team capable of challenging, and watching football isn't all about winning the league anyway, it is also entertainment, and the EPL entertains me that's for sure! d here in scotland my team hasn't won their league this year, so have i wasted my time going to all these matches this year? i don't think i have cause i was under the impression i actually enjoyed myself most of the time!

Last edited by paull805; 05-01-2011 at 12:49 PM..
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Old 05-01-2011, 01:26 PM
 
1,261 posts, read 1,772,100 times
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Well I probably could have chosen a better Italian team than Napoli to prove my point as they are one of the few teams outside of the North that seem to have strong success.

And the Europa? Hmmm, I think that reminds me of the college bowl system or the NIT, gives people who don't make it to the biggest stage another chance to shine. You can have good entertaining bouts in the NIT and non BCS (the largest most famous college post-season matchups) but the real aim is the promised land.

To many (Americans) I think they ask, If you're not on the biggest stage, what's the point? As far as MLS is concerned which is a pro league, I just don't think you can expect americans to be content that they are playing "good soccer" if they are at or near the bottom of the standings and there is a huge hurdle in getting the big stage. To many americans if you aren't in the run to WIN IT ALL, they aren't going to show up. There are exceptions but by and large that's the rule, something like Europa in this country's sporting context is like the NIT or any bowl that's NOT the BCS Bowls, i.e. ok but second rate. And to some people (Carolina basketball fans or Alabama football fans) being content to be in such a competition is tantamount to being a LOSER.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree here, it's gonna be a battle of attrition between guys from two different sporting nations. Still was fun hashing it out here.
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Old 05-01-2011, 01:54 PM
 
Location: Scotland
7,972 posts, read 10,101,874 times
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so you say competition is better, but you don't think it is up to much? one of the most competitive competitions in the world with teams like Manchester City, Lokomotiv Moscow, AEK Athens, Unirea Urziceni, Aston Villa, CSKA Moscow, Dundee United, Dinamo Zagreb, Getafe, Brugge, AIK, Villarreal, Metalist Kharkiv, Grasshopper, PAOK, Palermo, PSV Eindhoven, Celtic, Napoli, Feyenoord, Fenerbahçe, Bayer Leverkusen, Gent, Borussia Dortmund, Steaua Bucureşti, Paris Saint-Germain, Porto, BATE, Lech Poznań, Lille, Trabzonspor, Debrecen, Twent, Benfica, Rangers, Rubin Kazan, Basel, Spartak Moscow, Ajax, Braga, Liverpool, Sporting CP, Juventus, Galatasaray. i think these teams that competed in the europa league are a bit more than college teams! the teams i have highlighted would more than likely do very well in other leagues out with europe, and can more than hold their own in the champions league, it's competitive filled with quality teams the europa league, i for one love it!

yep suppose we should move on lol
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Old 05-01-2011, 06:41 PM
 
2,850 posts, read 3,941,769 times
Reputation: 3259
Quote:
Originally Posted by RjRobb2 View Post
I dont think you are understanding what he is saying. As far as the quality of the games and level of talent, the EPL, La Liga, and Serie A are the best in the world. But, as far as competition between teams they are most certaintly near the bottom. How many different teams have won the EPL since it was formed 20 years ago? That is the point he is trying to make. There are only a handful of teams that truly have a chance to win the league and that takes a lot of the enjoyment of following those leagues. Sure, any soccer fan enjoys watching those games but when it comes to following the competition throughout the league, it isnt as fun as watching a league where more than half of the league or perhaps the whole league could win it. Do you enjoy a movie as much if you know how it is going to end?

At the start of the EPL season, how many teams does anyone predict to win the league? For most of the leagues history, it has been four or maybe even three. Now, you might be able to add Tottenham and Man City in there but recently it has really only been Chelsea and Man U.

In MLS, 3/4 of the league could win the Supporters Shield and nearly the whole league is in the hunt for the playoffs until the last couple of weeks of the season. That's exciting as you see more than a dozen teams compete to actually win something rather than watch 3 or 4 teams compete for the title and possibly only two by the last few weeks.

There is a difference between enjoying the level of play like we do for the EPL and enjoying the overall competition of the league and that is the point he is trying to make.
Yes, this is what I was trying to say. I was talking about competition and not level of excitement or quality of the players. (E.g., a 6-0 blowout by ManU is exciting only for ManU fans.) Thanks.

Last edited by Teak; 05-01-2011 at 06:53 PM..
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Old 05-01-2011, 08:27 PM
 
Location: Scotland
7,972 posts, read 10,101,874 times
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it's actually exciting for everyone except the team on the end of the 6-0 defeat
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