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Old 03-16-2011, 02:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paull805 View Post
there is 12 professional football teams in englands top 3 leagues from london, i am pretty sure a city the size of new york can have 2/3 teams! i know what you are saying doing things slowly at first, i also agree with that, but a great international city like new york deserves a derby match i think!
yes, but you can't compare the US and england, not at all. why can't NY Red bulls sell out then? why is their attendence so low? they have the best soccer stadium in the country -bar none.

they have no team in the SouthEast where college soccer is so popular, the carolinas, there are plenty of areas to expand to first.

NY is the largest city and has a diverse population and you'd think it's automatically a great fit but history proves otherwise. pretty embarrassing if you ask me that the largest , most diverse city in the US is behind others in supporting an MLS franchise. It's a real head scratcher.

with New england, Philadelphia, washington d.c., there are plenty of derby-style matches, (for us that's a derby) especially Philadelphia.

MLS needs to grow the footprint b/f it gives a city (no matter how big or diverse or "world class") a second team. They can't support the one they have properly.
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Old 03-16-2011, 03:46 PM
 
Location: Fife
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yeah for sure, i know what you are saying, you can't compare the two, but what i am getting at is a city with a population of 8+ million people, with as you say a lot of people from or have heritage from countries where football is popular, they are bound to be able to support 2 teams, my city has 3 and a population of under 200,000! even if they start with a modest support say 15/20,000 it can then grow over a few years and take it from there, then when or if football becomes a great american sport the new york derby can be up there with the milan, buenos aires or glasgow derbys. but as you rightly say not all the big derbys are from the same city, barca-real madrid, man united-liverpool, newcastle-sunderland, dortmond-schalke, so maybe the new york-philly game can grow in to a real regional derby. nothing better than a derby match!
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Old 03-16-2011, 04:00 PM
 
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You can't just create a rivalry with geography - the "derby" concept really doesn't exist that much here ... there are a few examples where teams sharing a city will have a rivalry, but it isn't necessary

what generally drives rivalries here are intense competition, familiarity and a disdain over time - some times they are involving teams in a geographic cluster more than intra-city rivalries

the other thing that would make a "derby" difficult when it comes to NYC and many other american cities is that unlike a lot of the world where their teams were neighborhood teams that grew, but still have a large attachment to that neighborhood - our cities/team locations just aren't like that

the red bulls don't even play in new york state - it's not like you have fans walking past the stadium everyday going about their business and really feeling that community identification

what can make some of the derbies so great is that fans are vested so much into what their teams say about them and their neighborhood

with new franchises playing in stadiums on the outskirts it's going to be hard to foster that type of environment

so while there may not be a 2nd team in NYC - you can bet if both NY & Philly ever get competative to the point where they need to go through each other to reach their goals on a consistent basis that a rivalry will form fairly quickly .... some from the competative nature of the teams and some from the feelings of certain NYC/north jersey residents towards those of certain philly/south jersey residents and vice versa .... you could get a derby feel even though the two teams don't share a city
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Old 03-16-2011, 04:34 PM
 
Location: Fife
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i get what you are saying but 85% of derbys and some of the most feirce are same city derbys, west ham-millwall, celtic-rangers, birmingham-aston villa are some of the biggest derbys but then you have big rivalries with teams from other cities like swansea-cardiff, newcastle-sunderland, man united-liverpool, aberdeen-dundee united. it is all about history and in some cases like you said different neighbourhoods etc. no one derby is the same there is reasons and are sometimes political, religious, class etc. the west ham-millwall derby is very fierce simply because they don't like where about each other comes from, its territorial, the old firm derby is years of hatred towards each other about political and religious reasons. then you get two teams like man u-liverpool and aberdeen-dundee united just don't like each other simply because they were the successfull teams in that country at one time and are near-ish one another, so theres plenty of reasons why they are big derbys around the world, but if you want one, which you might not, you do need to lay the building blocks, like having two sides in a city or maybe get a team for working class people and one for upper class people or, which maybe one day happen with new york and philly, they two become the dominant sides and a rivalry grows from that
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Old 03-16-2011, 04:57 PM
 
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there is no team for working class people in the US or at least not on a large scale (especially with newer leagues like soccer) ..... if the teams were born 100 years ago where ethnicity, religion, class, etc were more prominant means of identifying yourself you'd get a little more of that

it's a little different here .... teams with means that are successful are hated because they have means (yankees, duke, etc) .... they are kind of like ManU mixed with Chelsea ..... but teams with means that are lousy don't carry the same hate

you have a city like Pittsburgh that will have the working class feeling and identity and they may clash with a city that has a different identity .... but what you'll generally see is more of a rivalry against cities that look and feel like them and then everyone kind of hating "the elites"

so much here boils down to winning and who prevents you from winning ........ then you have history, geography, etc .... the whole familiarity breeds contempt

NY/Philly works in many ways and the building blocks are long set .... there is a regional rivalry/disdain .... they have years of dislike in other sports (eagles/giants, flyers/devils, flyers/rangers, phillies/mets) .... you will get some perceived class issues and some of those other side factors in with some supporters ....... all that really needs to be done is have the two teams be relevant in a competative way and all that other stuff will set off

chicago has some of those other aspects at play between the cubs/white sox - although they don't have much of a rivalry in games against each other (especially before they started interleague play) ..... they were teams that hated each other for pretty much every reason except on field competativeness ....... the cubs/cardinals had the history of hatred from the competative side

I just don't think NYC fans are going to have a big rivalry on geography alone .... their teams have a history of coexistance and they are now being setup to represent the city more than a class, neighborhood or anything that someone can attach identity towards ....... what you see in some european cities with derbys is what you used to have in baseball here - when NY had multiple teams with strong regional feelings, philadelphia as well with neighborhood parks, etc

there just tends to be more of a framework of city pride and identification that can help spark an inter-city rivalry rather than an intra-city rivalry
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Old 03-16-2011, 06:29 PM
 
2,074 posts, read 1,863,846 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finger Laker View Post
You can't just create a rivalry with geography - the "derby" concept really doesn't exist that much here ... there are a few examples where teams sharing a city will have a rivalry, but it isn't necessary

what generally drives rivalries here are intense competition, familiarity and a disdain over time - some times they are involving teams in a geographic cluster more than intra-city rivalries

the other thing that would make a "derby" difficult when it comes to NYC and many other american cities is that unlike a lot of the world where their teams were neighborhood teams that grew, but still have a large attachment to that neighborhood - our cities/team locations just aren't like that

the red bulls don't even play in new york state - it's not like you have fans walking past the stadium everyday going about their business and really feeling that community identification

what can make some of the derbies so great is that fans are vested so much into what their teams say about them and their neighborhood

with new franchises playing in stadiums on the outskirts it's going to be hard to foster that type of environment

so while there may not be a 2nd team in NYC - you can bet if both NY & Philly ever get competative to the point where they need to go through each other to reach their goals on a consistent basis that a rivalry will form fairly quickly .... some from the competative nature of the teams and some from the feelings of certain NYC/north jersey residents towards those of certain philly/south jersey residents and vice versa .... you could get a derby feel even though the two teams don't share a city
+ 1

b/c of the "playoffs'' in american sports thats really where rivalries happen, or due to long standing playing against one another which MLS doesn't have.
think 49'ers- Cowboys,
Red wings - Avs --- one of the most fierce things I've ever seen in professional N.A. sports, when a hockey player needs plastic surgery on his face after a game you've got something...


take packers- bears, rivalry and people talk about the distance and then compare that with Arsenal - Tottenham, they're stadiums are not only in the same city, the same region of that city but like 1.5 miles apart!!!! forget even Cubs/White Sox or Yankees/Mets , there is nothing to compare.

and people talk about the uniqueness of Lambeau field b/c it's right in a residential neighborhood and sure it's unique and special but that's par for the course in europe. So many stadia are like that.

the packers are "community owned" and in an american tradition it's special but in all reality it means very little. At Barcelona season ticket holders have a vote on the president, in Germany the fan clubs are guaranteed a seat on the board of directors and have a say in the direction the clubs are going. There's just no comparison. West Ham and Millwall were competing for ship contracts on the Thames before they even had football teams, the football teams are just an outlet for generation after generation of pent up anger. Sorry, we've got nothgin to compare with that.

and the fact that the smaller countries in europe means you can always play a balanced schedule helps as well. Plus better public transportation, more vacation to travel and see your team play on the road domestically or internationally. I mean could you imagine 5,000 -10,000 new york ranger fans traveling to montreal to see their team play one game? Happens in the Champ. League all the time.

edit: and yes I'll say it, teams here are "franchises" , over there they're clubs, Hamburg Sport 'verein' club has a chess division, these teams have other althletic endevors that regular citizens can join and partake in, there is no owner that's going to say ' give me a new stadium or I'll take the team to a new city', just doesn't happen, like we said, they are very much a part of the fabric of not only the city but neighborhoods in which they're situated.
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Old 03-16-2011, 06:35 PM
 
Location: Fife
6,611 posts, read 4,920,033 times
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yeah i know thats what i am saying every derby is different, if a derby does develop between two new york teams or between new york and another team, it will be it's own unique derby with its own life and reasons for being, i was just pointing out some ways it could happen, but as i say if it does happen it will just grow in its own time for whatever reason it may be, but obviously the main or more likely reason will be if they and another team are dominant in the mls
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Old 03-16-2011, 06:42 PM
 
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Yep - when I was in london it seemed many stadiums had that vibe of wrigleyville, yawkey way, lambeau or the other residential "unique" environments here where a game is a true neighborhood community event

i also agree about red wings/avs - I spent a winter in denver towards the end of the height of that period and my god was it intense and it really came out of nowhere .... our population is relatively new and transient ..... neighborhoods are constantly changing their identities and cities kind of ebb & flow

the rivalries, derbys and reasoning we see behind it change at the various levels as well .... in HS you get a lot that is geographical, class related, towns being competative ... when I think of the teams that were our rivals in HS a couple were related to performance, most were not

in college it was more of a blend

for my professional teams I think most are a history of competativeness, actions taken by players/coaches during the competition, dislike for owners, etc
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Old 03-16-2011, 06:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paull805 View Post
yeah i know thats what i am saying every derby is different, if a derby does develop between two new york teams or between new york and another team, it will be it's own unique derby with its own life and reasons for being, i was just pointing out some ways it could happen, but as i say if it does happen it will just grow in its own time for whatever reason it may be, but obviously the main or more likely reason will be if they and another team are dominant in the mls
oh definitely - NY could be rivals with any variety of cities/teams for any variety of reasons

I just don't think it's a strong point that we should add another team to NY to create a derby

in american sports bad blood is spilled for a variety of reasons - look at the NBA you have some very prominant ones boston/lakers, boston/philly, chicago/detroit and a variety of others at any given time ......... but there is zero between the nets/knicks, lakers/clippers, etc

professional sports are just a little different here
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Old 03-17-2011, 05:18 AM
 
1,257 posts, read 1,190,405 times
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Back on topic....

After reading some of the comments on Big Soccer (jeez those people are intense)

I think it will be hard for US to ever really care about the Champions League if we don't beat our wealthier Mexican counterparts.

As one commentator says;

Mexico's league gets big money from TV on BOTH sides of the border and has much better player development.

If places like Japan and Arab/African countries (overlooking the Egyptian Titans) can still get behind their teams and leagues, I will still support mine.

Still one would hope 20 years from now we have made some progress in development and have teams that are independently owned.
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