U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Soccer
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-01-2013, 12:20 AM
 
1,356 posts, read 1,635,306 times
Reputation: 1035

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by JD47john View Post
No they wouldn't. They offer want them because they are a big name. They buy them so they can have a larger squad. Believe me when I say this and this is from someone who watches a lot of European football, Beckham would not make it in the PSG starting 11. They are has-beens.



No I am not just talking about Messi and Ronaldo. I am talking about any great player. If Barcelona, Madrid, Man Utd, Bayern etc.. want you, the will get you over any MLS team.

I never said that they wont play in the MLS. They might when they are 34 and cant get into a starting 11 in a PL club.

Do you understand the attraction of playing in Barcelona, Madrid, Munchen and London? Do you understand the history and the atmosphere that the Estadio Bernabeu? Do you understand how rich Man City and Chelsea are and what kind of contracts they can offer? Do you understand the lure the Premier League and Uefa Champions League has on a player?

You might match the contracts but you wont outbid them and then it will come down club status. Ok, LA Galaxy are offering me 200k a week and so are Barcelona. Who should I go for? A team that dont even play in the biggest club competition in the world and play in a league that is very poor in quality or do I want to go to a Champions League winning team and play with great players and win trophies and play in a wonderful stadium full of history and live the glory. I know what I would pick.

You're assuming that the prestige associated with the mls or any NA championship won't change. If a starting contract is in the multi million dollar range then I think its safe to assume that the prestige will have to have gone up for the average starting g salary to be that high.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-02-2013, 03:09 PM
 
1,261 posts, read 1,770,576 times
Reputation: 371
The previous comment about aiming to supplant NHL is a decent way of looking at it.

It won't be easy to change perception due to the tradition of the Stanley Cup. LA is not a hockey hotbed, but the Kings got good coverage when they won it last time due to the prestige of the tournament. The MLS cup will never really equal the same kind of perception unless it passes some sort of constantly supposed "eye test" of quality.

However, the upside is that NHL seemingly has a ceiling in terms of appeal due to it being primarily a cold weather sport dominated by canadians. Soccer can be played in much more places nationwide and has everyone participating.

The destiny of MLS is tied (to an extent) with the destiny of soccer development in America as a whole. The cultural push to excel in the sport is no where near the level of other countries due to mainly lack of tradition and monentary incentive.

I think the MLS will continue to grapple with it's identity crisis. Should it be an incubator for the USNT or primaily focus on fielding entertaining (and profitable) soccer franchises regardless of players' national origins?

On the one hand you cannot argue with incentives.......the changing of youth development has yielded results but not nearly quick or drastic enough to move the needle in terms of giving the league much more respect. Some argue that if you import more skilled players (like from central america, etc.) you up the quality and therefore the bar that young americans have to reach in order to get to the league.

However, if you fill the roster with primarily foriegners, you run the risk of alienating a certain part of the fanbase. (Europe is distinct as they have both the cushions of dominating their local sports scene AND being the greatest show on earth). If you just focus on new comers from outside the border, you don't build emphathy with home grown audiences and media. What's more it isn't as if development for the National team is not an honorable aim in itself for the league.

What should be the path? Well naturally, a mix between the later and former I just mentioned. Don't deny entertaining (and relatively inexpensive) foriegners the chance to influence the league, but continue to develop home grown players as well. I think you have to strike a balance between the incentive approach and the controlled home grown approach to attract both "eurosnobs" and new comers to the sport, (through improved quality and home town hero hype respectively).

In addition, after we get to 20 teams and a stable crop of scheduling and stadia (I.E. ALL teams should have their own grounds or grounds on which they make money), at some point in time you will have to raise the salary cap (likely in a gradual nature) and BEGIN to leave single entity structure. These are good training wheel/restraint mechanisms for the leagues growth, but sooner or later they will hinder it (some say they already have).


Without either of these, the league is not likely to grow where it really needs it....TELEVISION AUDIENCES. While we will get a MUCH better comparison starting next year when NBC gets rights to both Barclay's AND MLS, anecdotally, the fandom ratio of foreign soccer to local soccer seems like 2 to 1. Ratings are MINISCULE and since that really is the profit center of sports these days, attendance figures are complimentary but footnote like in signifigance over all.

I'd say a read out of the next 20 years is when we can really give the verdict of how far MLS has come as being a decent league. I say somewhere like what the best Latin American leagues can be in terms of depth of teams competing for championships and to a less extent, exporters of high end talent to Europe. I don't think MLS will ever surpass UEFA soccer for popularity amongst league audiences (nor will it supplant the Big 3 homegrown leagues) but it could nearly equal their UEFA counterparts if they bat 100.


Oh yea, and we HAVE to start winning the CCL regularly and hype that up, it'll at least help in street cred as best we can. If only we could regularly have wins against Chivas, Boca and Fluminense on our resume....THAT would help in perception for sure!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-08-2013, 08:37 AM
 
Location: Fairfax, Va
245 posts, read 256,036 times
Reputation: 127
Exclamation You know what really grinds me about MLS

1- the fact that they have to make expansions to allow teams to Join in
2- No Relegation/ Promotion although if MLS put USL pro and NASL in the soccer system the competition will increase
3- Teams like Chivas and NY Red Bulls. Chivas USA!!! You can't transform glory and history from Mexico and expect the franchise to follow, I think it should change to a second LA team or move to San Diego. NY RED BULLS!!! an Austrian team!! Against modern Football
4- The fact that the league is one of the most capitalist football leagues in the world and there is a budget cap for teams
5- The way that they are trying to Americanize the league in any way

The league has a lot of potential to become a strong team but Garber and CO are sending it to hell
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-08-2013, 10:04 AM
 
Location: Tejas
7,550 posts, read 16,385,177 times
Reputation: 5087
1) I am presuming this point is connected to point 1 ? If not explain.

2) I totally agree. I HATE the playoff system and lack of relegation/promotion. I already know all I have to look forward to this season is winning a game or 4 and thats it. We have no chance at playoffs so our season is over before its begun. Relegation/Playoffs would add a new dimension to the league.

3) I agree again with that. I would love to see NYRB disappear.

4) Budget caps are good. While many teams in Europe fall apart and go into extinction or are owned by banks the spending is more responsible in MLS.

5) On the contrary, its reversing. When MLS was first setup it was a very American league. Look at the rules from then to now. Its becoming more like the global game slowly, only thing that really separates it is the Playoff situation. Hell we even have standing only terraces in some stadiums now (albeit small) and thats a big deal.

The league is getting higher avg attendances every season. Its not perfect but its definitely not going to hell by any stretch of the imagination.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-08-2013, 02:33 PM
 
Location: Kansas City, MO
5,763 posts, read 9,744,446 times
Reputation: 2806
There are several things wrong about your gripes. While you are welcome to your opinion, some of your gripes are the only reason the league exist and is thriving at the level it is. Without some of these things, MLS would have folded back in 2002 or earlier and even if they were changed now, the league would take a significant financial hit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mos1992 View Post
1- the fact that they have to make expansions to allow teams to Join in
How else do you get teams? Any team joining the league would, in fact, be an expansion team. This gripe makes no sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mos1992 View Post
2- No Relegation/ Promotion although if MLS put USL pro and NASL in the soccer system the competition will increase
Let's say you are a deep-pocketed individual and are interested in starting an MLS team. The fee to enter the league is 100 million, start-up capital required would be probably another 100 million and then to be financial viable, you have to get an SSS built that would require public funding or another 200 million out of pocket. So, you are going to throw 400 million in cash into the business and likely take losses for a few years on top of that. But, wait, there is a chance that your team could be demoted down into second division. Do you think that is an investment you would want to make? For the existing owners, do you think they would want to have a system where there team could potentially be booted down to lower divisions and the losses they are already taken would deepen as casual fans stop following the team?

You know why pro/ref works in Europe? It's because those teams have been around for over 100 years. They have 4, 6, 7 even 8 generations of loyal fans. MLS is only 17 years old. It is still a juvenile. The first generation of fans are just now grooming the second generation of fans.

U.S. culture is not use to pro/reg. A casual fan would not accept their team playing in lower divisions. To them, that is like a major league baseball player being booted down to the minors.

If this system were implemented, teams relegated would struggle financially and some would fold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mos1992 View Post
3- Teams like Chivas and NY Red Bulls. Chivas USA!!! You can't transform glory and history from Mexico and expect the franchise to follow, I think it should change to a second LA team or move to San Diego. NY RED BULLS!!! an Austrian team!! Against modern Football
Your complaint isnt with MLS, it is with those two franchises. Chivas USA is a joke of a franchise. But, every professional sports league in the world has bad franchises.

NY Red Bulls are not an Austrialian team. They are an MLS with an Austrian owner. Not sure why you care about it. They are operated fairly well, have a good team, and are far from the worst ran franchise in the league.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mos1992 View Post
4- The fact that the league is one of the most capitalist football leagues in the world and there is a budget cap for teams
You do not understand what the term capitalist means. MLS is the opposite of capitalism. The EPL, La Liga, and Serie A are capitalist football leagues. With those leagues, each team operates completely independent and are able to spend freely based on the financial stablity and budgets of each club. This is why so many of them are struggling financially and teams like Pompei had to be relegated for it.

MLS is more of a socialist design. It is a single-entity with each club being a branch of the organization. Players sign contracts with the league and the league pays salaries except for Designated Player salaries.

Without this system, the league would have folded more than a decade ago. This league design has caught the attention of sports leagues all over the world including EPL and La Liga. Because of this system, the league is not only financially stable but experiencing growth at a pace unprecedented by professional sports organizations.

EPL is working on a wage cap: http://au.fourfourtwo.com/news/25644...er-league.aspx

Quote:
Originally Posted by mos1992 View Post
5- The way that they are trying to Americanize the league in any way
In anyway? How is the league Americanized? Playoffs? That is about it. All it is is an added competition at the end of the season. Other leagues around the world have playoffs.

The league follows the laws of the game. Name the ways it is "Americanized".

Quote:
Originally Posted by mos1992 View Post
The league has a lot of potential to become a strong team but Garber and CO are sending it to hell
This is about the most inaccurate statement I have read in 2013. When Garber took over, the league was on it's death bed. Between 1996 and 2004, MLS lost over 350 million dollars. At one point, AEG owned 6 clubs, Hunt owned 3, and Robert Kraft owned 1. Not a single team had a stadium, the league was paying money to get their games on TV, teams were losing money like crazy, no major sponsorships, and average attendance was 13,756.

In the 14 years with Garber leading, the league now has 17 owners for 19 teams, 16 teams with a soccer specific stadium, an attendance average near 19k which is 8th in the world for soccer and 3rd in the US out of all the sports leagues, several major national TV deals that pay millions, several teams profitable, several teams selling out stadiums and have season ticket waiting list, big time sponsorships from the worlds biggest companies, and quality of play has increased substantially.

MLS is growing at a healthy and steady right. It could not be operating and growing at a better pace. With the current TV deals getting ready to expire, they are in line to get much larger deals. A second NY franchise actually inside NY will be huge as well.

The only real problem areas for the league are TV ratings, unhealthy franchises such as Chivas and New England, and getting DC into an SSS. For a league as young as MLS, it is doing very well. You have to remember MLS' age in comparison to other leagues.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-08-2013, 11:13 PM
 
Location: Kansas City, MO
5,763 posts, read 9,744,446 times
Reputation: 2806
If you really want to discuss improving the stature of MLS, watch or listen to this lecture/interview given by Robb Heinemann, CEO and one of the owners of SKC at KU this past week. It is an hour long and their are no visual aids presented so you can just listen while on your PC or through your phone.

While most of it is about KC, he talks about turning around the franchise and it could be applied to the rest of the league. Some interested facts that get touched on are that when OnGoal purchased the team in 2006, we only had 450 season ticket holders. Now, we have nearly 16,000 with a waiting list. We were not only last in merchandise sales, we were also behind MLS generic merchandise, we are now 3rd in the league and last year by the end of the first month of the season, we had sold over a million in merchandise.

He also talks about the league as a whole, improving academies, moving to the fall to winter calendar and other tidbits.

He also mentioned that they got a call from Kaka's agent about an interest in playing in KC a couple of weeks ago.

While this was one franchise, it is a guide that the rest of the league can use to improve struggling franchises and the league as a whole.


"Reinventing the Empire" - Robb Heineman -- Dole Institute of Politics - YouTube
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-10-2013, 02:59 PM
 
Location: yeah
5,716 posts, read 14,568,708 times
Reputation: 2829
I didn't like the Sporting name change but everything else OnGoal has done is great for the league, especially the old clubs that actually endured the doldrums of the first decade. It's easy to be Portland and just ride the backs of successful expansion and a rebuilt league while taking over some baseball team's stadium, but clubs with real MLS history (DC, Columbus, NE) have been slower to transition in terms of off-field establishment. I am thankful the Quakes are finally crossing over to the other side, but I will continue looking forward to new venues and revived fanbases across the league.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-12-2013, 12:11 PM
 
1,651 posts, read 1,307,405 times
Reputation: 288
I hope the MLS improves. The better the league, the better the game in my view.

I dunno what the MLS has to do. Youth systems would be a good start. Bring in new talent that will ad quality to the league. Could a deal not be struck with South America to form some sort of tournament to attract players so they wont be taking to Europe by the attraction of the Champions League?

Expanding a league to compete with it would be good to. America is that big, that it could have two major leagues or a major competition to compete for. Like an American FA Cup but only the best of the best can compete for it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-12-2013, 12:45 PM
 
Location: Kansas City, MO
5,763 posts, read 9,744,446 times
Reputation: 2806
Quote:
Originally Posted by JD47john View Post
I hope the MLS improves. The better the league, the better the game in my view.

I dunno what the MLS has to do. Youth systems would be a good start. Bring in new talent that will ad quality to the league. Could a deal not be struck with South America to form some sort of tournament to attract players so they wont be taking to Europe by the attraction of the Champions League?

Expanding a league to compete with it would be good to. America is that big, that it could have two major leagues or a major competition to compete for. Like an American FA Cup but only the best of the best can compete for it.

MLS just has to keep doing what they are doing. New talent comes to the league all the time. It's not about what they can do. It is about maintaining what they are doing and allowing time to pass so things can continue to grow. You cant plant a see for a tree and expect it to be a 100 foot redwood in 16 years.

Adding another professional soccer league would be foolish. It would fail miserably. We have lower division leagues that do pretty well.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-12-2013, 01:00 PM
 
1,651 posts, read 1,307,405 times
Reputation: 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by RjRobb2 View Post
Adding another professional soccer league would be foolish. It would fail miserably. We have lower division leagues that do pretty well.
I don't mean at the minute. I just mean in the future some time. When the league gets bigger and better(which I have no doubt that it will), then maybe a second league or some sort of major tournament would be good to help keep the players at their club rather then them going off to the likes of Madrid or Barcelona to win the European Cup.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Soccer
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top