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Old 06-11-2013, 10:47 AM
 
1,651 posts, read 1,308,798 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RjRobb2 View Post
Provide a link to one interview with a world class player where they have said they wont play in a league that doesnt have pro/reg. Find me just one. I bet you cant do it.
You talked about ignorance on another thread. What you just said is the exact same. Because I cant provide a link that says the best players in the world don't want to play in the MLS or in a going nowhere league, doesn't mean they don't. Okay I will give you one. You provide a link saying some world class players don't like eating fish. You cant? Does that mean that every world class player likes eating fish? No, don't think so. Why would any world class player bring up in an interview that he doesn't want to play in a pro/rel league?


Quote:
Originally Posted by RjRobb2 View Post
You really think pro/reg has any bearing on the top players and where they will play? You have to be kidding. If anything, they would love to be in a league where getting relegated just isnt possible.
Do you know them personally? Every world class player plays in a pro/rel league.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RjRobb2 View Post
The changing of teams due to pro/reg is only exciting when the promoted teams get a chance to win the title but that doesnt happen. Promoted teams might float at mid table and usually get relegated within a few seasons. It doesnt add nearly as much as excitement as you think it does. Sports fans watch the best teams, not the teams at the bottom. That is the case for every sport. Pro/reg is only exciting for the fans of the teams in the pro/reg zone each particular season. Outside of that, few care. Pro/reg is not nearly as important as you think it is and definitely will not determine the success or failure of MLS. The overwhelming success of MLS at such a young age proves you're wrong.
So because Americans don't find it exciting means no one finds it exciting? One of the most exciting things about the Premier League is the relegation battle. Its very important in a league and most leagues in the world have them. For you to say its not because American fans don't find them worthy or exciting is ridiculous.

 
Old 06-11-2013, 10:50 AM
 
1,651 posts, read 1,308,798 times
Reputation: 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by RjRobb2 View Post
It's kind of funny that Manchester City owners would put that kind of money into the league when apparently you say it wont have future growth. Dont you think the Man City owners know more than you about what it takes to grow the league in the future or are you smarter sitting behind your keyboard with what is obviously not the slightest clue about how business works.
Nope I don't. All I know is that it works in most leagues on the planet and is a good thing.

I'm done talking to you about this. You are unbelievably biased and you cant get through to you. You are the one who tried to tell me that the likes of Messi would like to play in the MLS rather than Europe. There is no getting through to you.
 
Old 06-11-2013, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Kansas City, MO
5,763 posts, read 9,752,866 times
Reputation: 2809
Quote:
Originally Posted by JD47john View Post
You talked about ignorance on another thread. What you just said is the exact same. Because I cant provide a link that says the best players in the world don't want to play in the MLS or in a going nowhere league, doesn't mean they don't. Okay I will give you one. You provide a link saying some world class players don't like eating fish. You cant? Does that mean that every world class player likes eating fish? No, don't think so. Why would any world class player bring up in an interview that he doesn't want to play in a pro/rel league?
But, you say that players dont want to play in a league that doesnt have pro/reg like it is a fact. In order for you to have so much certaintly, you must have heard them say it. If you havent, then you have no way of knowing that. I can name several factors of why world class players would not want to play in MLS but pro/reg is not one of them.




Quote:
Originally Posted by JD47john View Post
Do you know them personally? Every world class player plays in a pro/rel league.
And you think that is because they have pro/reg? It most certaintly has nothing to do with salary, prestige or opportunity, right?



Quote:
Originally Posted by JD47john View Post
So because Americans don't find it exciting means no one finds it exciting? One of the most exciting things about the Premier League is the relegation battle. Its very important in a league and most leagues in the world have them. For you to say its not because American fans don't find them worthy or exciting is ridiculous.

You're taking what I said and spinning it. I didnt say no one finds it exciting. I said that Americans are the MLS' target market, therefore, what Americans find exciting is going to be the number one driver.

You seem to think that need to have pro/reg overcomes the negative of having teams go out of business which would kill the league. You do not seem to understand the financial impact of having teams relegated. Getting relegated = not enough revenue to pay expenses = closing your doors for good. What about this do you not understand?
 
Old 06-11-2013, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Kansas City, MO
5,763 posts, read 9,752,866 times
Reputation: 2809
Quote:
Originally Posted by JD47john View Post
Nope I don't. All I know is that it works in most leagues on the planet and is a good thing.
It works in most leagues in the planet because it is imbedded in the culture and is understood so the financial impact isnt as severe. In the US, which I doubt you have ever been, it is not part of our culture and fans view anything other than the top league as minor or semi-pro. What about this do you not understand. A team getting relegated to the minors when they have major league expenses is the kiss of death.

TEAM GETS RELEGATED = GOES OUT OF BUSINESS - AS IN NO LONGER EXISTS. I am not sure how many ways I need to put this so you understand it. Do you really think having a system that will have teams go out of business every year is going to grow the league?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JD47john View Post
I'm done talking to you about this. You are unbelievably biased and you cant get through to you. You are the one who tried to tell me that the likes of Messi would like to play in the MLS rather than Europe. There is no getting through to you.
You really need to learn to read the words on the screen instead of the words you want to see. I never said that.
 
Old 06-11-2013, 11:01 AM
 
1,496 posts, read 1,502,242 times
Reputation: 1212
Quote:
Originally Posted by RjRobb2 View Post
But, you say that players dont want to play in a league that doesnt have pro/reg like it is a fact. In order for you to have so much certaintly, you must have heard them say it. If you havent, then you have no way of knowing that. I can name several factors of why world class players would not want to play in MLS but pro/reg is not one of them.






And you think that is because they have pro/reg? It most certaintly has nothing to do with salary, prestige or opportunity, right?






You're taking what I said and spinning it. I didnt say no one finds it exciting. I said that Americans are the MLS' target market, therefore, what Americans find exciting is going to be the number one driver.

You seem to think that need to have pro/reg overcomes the negative of having teams go out of business which would kill the league. You do not seem to understand the financial impact of having teams relegated. Getting relegated = not enough revenue to pay expenses = closing your doors for good. What about this do you not understand?
there are roughly 80 soccer leagues on the planet. 99% of them have pro/rel. Not one of them has folded because of it. What about this don't you understand?

If MLS had pro/rel it would involve more of the country. Fans of a 2nd div club in Tennessee would have a reason to watch MLS. There are so many advantages to pro/rel. That's why pro/rel is such a superior system. It works everywhere it is implemented. Good ideas are copied. Bad ideas aren't. No one is copying MLS's bad idea of a closed off system. NO ONE.

And it's not as if MLS is getting soccer fans to tune in and getting great TV ratings. How much longer do you need? The league is getting by on attendance at the gate and franchise fees. That's not sustainable. We need to copy what works around the world. Soccer is a global game. It is not the NFL!!!
 
Old 06-11-2013, 11:08 AM
 
1,651 posts, read 1,308,798 times
Reputation: 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by RjRobb2 View Post
But, you say that players dont want to play in a league that doesnt have pro/reg like it is a fact. In order for you to have so much certaintly, you must have heard them say it. If you havent, then you have no way of knowing that. I can name several factors of why world class players would not want to play in MLS but pro/reg is not one of them.
Same can be said to you. I have never heard a world class player, in his peak, say that he would like to play in a league without pro/reg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RjRobb2 View Post
And you think that is because they have pro/reg? It most certaintly has nothing to do with salary, prestige or opportunity, right?
Why do those leagues have money and prestige? Because they are the best leagues in the world. Why is the Premier League the best league in the world? Because its the most watched league in the world. Its the most watched league in the world because its exciting. Its exciting because it has a title race, a race for the top 4, a European race and a RELEGATION BATTLE. Why do players want to play there? Because its the most watched league in the world and its where the money and action is. Why is the money there? Because its exciting and people pay to watch it. Why is it exciting? Because of all the above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RjRobb2 View Post
You're taking what I said and spinning it. I didnt say no one finds it exciting. I said that Americans are the MLS' target market, therefore, what Americans find exciting is going to be the number one driver.
You said ''Pro/reg is only exciting for the fans of the teams in the pro/reg zone each particular season. Outside of that, few care.'' That to me sounds like you are saying very few care, which is not true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RjRobb2 View Post
You seem to think that need to have pro/reg overcomes the negative of having teams go out of business which would kill the league. You do not seem to understand the financial impact of having teams relegated. Getting relegated = not enough revenue to pay expenses = closing your doors for good. What about this do you not understand?
No I don't. If you look back, I said that the MLS is doing great and is growing and it should keep growing. In a few years time it should bring in a relegation system. That's what I have been trying to say.

Last edited by JD47john; 06-11-2013 at 04:01 PM..
 
Old 06-11-2013, 11:15 AM
 
1,651 posts, read 1,308,798 times
Reputation: 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by RjRobb2 View Post
It works in most leagues in the planet because it is imbedded in the culture and is understood so the financial impact isnt as severe. In the US, which I doubt you have ever been, it is not part of our culture and fans view anything other than the top league as minor or semi-pro. What about this do you not understand. A team getting relegated to the minors when they have major league expenses is the kiss of death.
That's basically the football world then. So you agree that big players wont be attracted to the league because not having a pro/reg league is not ''embedded in their culture''?

Oh and its none of your concern whether I have been to the US or not. As its none of my concern to think that you haven't been outside of the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RjRobb2 View Post
TEAM GETS RELEGATED = GOES OUT OF BUSINESS - AS IN NO LONGER EXISTS. I am not sure how many ways I need to put this so you understand it. Do you really think having a system that will have teams go out of business every year is going to grow the league?
I understand that, that's why I said in a few years. That's the catch of the league. That's the thing that makes it great. Its wide open. Everyone is fighting for something. It brings commitment, passion and ambition to the league. You just don't get that. You seem to think its boring so that means its boring. That's totally not true.
 
Old 06-11-2013, 11:17 AM
 
1,651 posts, read 1,308,798 times
Reputation: 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldous9 View Post
Soccer is a global game. It is not the NFL!!!
I don't think he understands that.

Its pointless arguing.
 
Old 06-11-2013, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Tejas
7,551 posts, read 16,398,736 times
Reputation: 5087
Am I the only one round long enough to realise if you have a different opinion to RJ you are wrong. Period ? Talks a lot about having no evidence to backup what you say but provides none for most of his claims.
 
Old 06-11-2013, 11:48 AM
 
9,029 posts, read 16,444,433 times
Reputation: 6817
[quote=Aldous9;29972200]If MLS had pro/rel it would involve more of the country/quote]

No it wouldn't.

I think you fail to grasp how large the US is and the vast differences in sizes of cities. Some cities simply cannot support top level sports. They don't have the infrastructure, the population or an ownership willing to stake large money to a small market. Even within established "pro sports cities" there is a large difference between the top and bottom as far as resources.

You also completely fail to grasp the other interests and options of the consumers here.

Not to mention cultivating a new league with zero history - which is very difficult to do and many others have failed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldous9 View Post
Fans of a 2nd div club in Tennessee would have a reason to watch MLS.
No they wouldn't.

Again, you simply do not know of what you speak. They'll watch their club and if their club were in a position to advance they would then do some standing tracking and maybe at the end of the year watch a game or two ..... the amount of interest that would be drummed up would be completely insignificant. However, if you lost a team in Seattle to put a team in Knoxville the hit to your gate, ratings, etc wouldn't be insignificant - it would cripple your league.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldous9 View Post
And it's not as if MLS is getting soccer fans to tune in and getting great TV ratings. How much longer do you need?
They've come a long way and it's getting better. When they started out they actually had to pay to be on TV. It's only recently they are getting money to play.

It's also about getting into a crowded distribution. ESPN networks draw better than NBCSN and were up about 25% year over year in viewership. NBCSN is right on the targets they wanted and since they are a newer network that is rebranding they actually get a boost from MLS.

These things take forever though. Keep in mind that in the early 80s the NBA playoffs were shown on tape delay and that was at a time with a lot fewer options.

Pro/Reg has absolutley nothing to do with poor TV ratings ....... the fact that soccer is viewed as a boring game to watch by a large part of the population hurts the ratings .... the fact that there are countless other entrenched games hurts the ratings .... soccer is also harder to capitalize on for the networks than some other sports (including baseball) that they are able to completely jam full of revenue spots. The problem isn't that people don't want to watch MLS on TV - the problem is people don't want to watch soccer on TV for the most part.

Everything is trending in the right direction. However, you have to build up your markets and find people willing to invest in them. To do this you can't risk having them ripped down.

Again, what good does it do to swap Houston for El Paso?

Soccer fans are going to watch games if they are available.

I'm from upstate NY which has a huge soccer following. We've had very successful lower level teams as well as indoor teams. The people there would love an MLS team. However, it's not going to happen. This doesn't stop them from supporting their team nor does it stop them from watching MLS - they like the game, they'll watch it. It's one of the biggest things to do in the area and the competition just isn't as fierce. It's a minor league city (rochester) and OK with it (reluctantly). Prices are minor league, corporate sponsorships are minor league, etc. They just can't bring the revenue that larger markets can - the market will not support it. Not a reality that they may want to admit, but it's the reality. Although, it's still a great time to go and watch a game.

You can have great minor league cities within major league territories. They tend to work well together.
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