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Old 06-11-2013, 12:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finger Laker View Post

No they wouldn't.

Again, you simply do not know of what you speak. They'll watch their club and if their club were in a position to advance they would then do some standing tracking and maybe at the end of the year watch a game or two ..... the amount of interest that would be drummed up would be completely insignificant. However, if you lost a team in Seattle to put a team in Knoxville the hit to your gate, ratings, etc wouldn't be insignificant - it would cripple your league.
In every football league system on the frickin planet, fans of Div 2 clubs tune in to watch the top Division. Why? Because their clubs, if they do well enough, will be playing in that league. Somehow you think America is different? Feel free to provide some evidence for this ridiculous claim.

And no, losing a team in Seattle and replacing it with a team in Knoxville would not cripple a league. Tell me one league on the planet that has been crippled by pro/rel. You can't name one. THIS IS HOW FOOTBALL IS PLAYED EVERYWHERE ON THE GLOBE. And it is successful everywhere.

 
Old 06-11-2013, 02:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldous9 View Post
In every football league system on the frickin planet, fans of Div 2 clubs tune in to watch the top Division. Why?
Maybe they enjoy the game? Which is the reason why they watch the Div 2 team to begin with. Why wouldn't they then want to watch the same game with more talented players at a higher level?

It's like MLS fans watching EPL or the Champions League they obviously have shot at participating in them .... however, they like the game and enjoy watching it played at that level

I really don't think it's that much of a mystery .... if you like it enough to really follow a low level team of course you're going to like it enough to watch higher level teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldous9 View Post
Somehow you think America is different?
Somehow you think it isn't? Keeping in mind that the US is a massive country with many very large cities and plenty of well established sports and leagues that already draw the majority of the nations interest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldous9 View Post
And no, losing a team in Seattle and replacing it with a team in Knoxville would not cripple a league. Tell me one league on the planet that has been crippled by pro/rel. You can't name one. THIS IS HOW FOOTBALL IS PLAYED EVERYWHERE ON THE GLOBE. And it is successful everywhere.
Again - this is the US. Most countries in the world wouldn't have a position where you swap markets like that. Where there is a such a large difference between size & scope of cities. We can fill a league with large cities - we can't fill two leagues with large cities though.

Seattle has some of the best attendance in the league. They have strong merchandising. Strong television support. There is a good corporate presence there. There is a strong partnership with the home NFL team. The knoxville MSA is 837,571. The Seattle MSA is 3,905,026 - over 4 times the size. The differences grow even more when you look at the actual demographics.

Knoxville could never support a major league team. They could never work revenue like seattle could and would be a drain on league resources instead of a bump like seattle would be. Not to mention, if they followed the EPL model then MLS would have to give Seattle a payment to help them offset some of their financial losses when they are relegated - which would hurt the league even more.

You wouldn't get the same level of attendance for lower level competition, you wouldn't be able to retain the same type of players on a smaller budget, your corporate sponsors would find other places to put their money, the networks would be livid to lose that many households ..... it just doesn't work here. It's not the way the country and sports landscape is laid out

For MLS to be successful here they need to be able to engage and grow large american cities and make them sustainable soccer markets ..... they can't exist as a league where the same 4 teams contend, then the same group of teams fight for mid-table and the rest are consistently in the bottom ....... just can't happen to be successful.

The landscape is that different
 
Old 06-11-2013, 09:47 PM
 
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I think it's pretty obvious that the people arguing in favor of pro/rel in the US market are simply arguing off what they want their ideal league to be like(a carbon copy of how it is in Europe) and ignore the reality of the US market. The last attempt at having a league in the US failed because they over expanded themselves in a market that wasn't take a huge liking to the sport in comparison to American football, baseball, and basketball. If the Seattle Sounders were to be relegated in favor or some team out in Idaho then that would negatively impact the league since the latter doesn't have a huge market for the sport and it would result in investors not wanting to invest in the Sounders to promote the team as a brand. In addition to that, the new NASL and USL Pro are both two entirely different franchises run independently of the MLS. Even it if that wasn't then there's still that risk of oversaturation. And I have to ask the people who keep arguing that pro/rel raises competitiveness of a league to please show me a regression analysis indicating that. The last time I checked, the MLS and the A-League have both become a lot more competitive since their conception and pro/rel is nowhere to be found.
 
Old 06-13-2013, 08:54 PM
 
1,496 posts, read 1,498,935 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finger Laker View Post
Maybe they enjoy the game? Which is the reason why they watch the Div 2 team to begin with. Why wouldn't they then want to watch the same game with more talented players at a higher level?

It's like MLS fans watching EPL or the Champions League they obviously have shot at participating in them .... however, they like the game and enjoy watching it played at that level

I really don't think it's that much of a mystery .... if you like it enough to really follow a low level team of course you're going to like it enough to watch higher level teams



Somehow you think it isn't? Keeping in mind that the US is a massive country with many very large cities and plenty of well established sports and leagues that already draw the majority of the nations interest.



Again - this is the US. Most countries in the world wouldn't have a position where you swap markets like that. Where there is a such a large difference between size & scope of cities. We can fill a league with large cities - we can't fill two leagues with large cities though.

Seattle has some of the best attendance in the league. They have strong merchandising. Strong television support. There is a good corporate presence there. There is a strong partnership with the home NFL team. The knoxville MSA is 837,571. The Seattle MSA is 3,905,026 - over 4 times the size. The differences grow even more when you look at the actual demographics.

Knoxville could never support a major league team. They could never work revenue like seattle could and would be a drain on league resources instead of a bump like seattle would be. Not to mention, if they followed the EPL model then MLS would have to give Seattle a payment to help them offset some of their financial losses when they are relegated - which would hurt the league even more.

You wouldn't get the same level of attendance for lower level competition, you wouldn't be able to retain the same type of players on a smaller budget, your corporate sponsors would find other places to put their money, the networks would be livid to lose that many households ..... it just doesn't work here. It's not the way the country and sports landscape is laid out

For MLS to be successful here they need to be able to engage and grow large american cities and make them sustainable soccer markets ..... they can't exist as a league where the same 4 teams contend, then the same group of teams fight for mid-table and the rest are consistently in the bottom ....... just can't happen to be successful.

The landscape is that different
there's nothing unique about America that would prevent pro/rel from working here. It would work here. It's worked everywhere on the frickin planet where soccer is played.

Competition increases quality. This is what pro/rel would do. All you have to do is look how successful it has been in Japan.

I've heard all these stupid arguments before . Unless you're going to provide evidence to back up what you are saying then don't even bother responding.
 
Old 06-14-2013, 01:01 PM
 
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evidence that replacing a wildy supporting $3M metro for a metro 1/4 of the size would upset broadcasters and the threat of such a thing happening would impair the leagues ability to draw revenue?!

that should be fairly evident .... what kind of evidence are you looking for besides basic economic & financial theories?!
 
Old 06-14-2013, 04:04 PM
 
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Theres 31 Metro areas in the US with over 2 million people, if ech of them had there own team (or more such as NY) and the teams were rewarded fairly for both performance and also merchandise sales, then how likely is it that a team from knoxville, the 64th largest metro area is going to end up in the US version of the premier league

You would end up with what every other country has, some teams that are safe bets to be in every year (due to their huge metro advantages NY, LA team(s) for example, some that will be in most times, but may flirt with the occasional relegation, and some that are either in a relegation battle most years, or a promotion battle , and then some that might occasionally get into a promotion battle

If there was to be a team in Knoxville, considering 20 team leagues, plus certain cities having more than one team, then it would be overachieving to be in the 3rd division, lets alone the 1st.


Most people who do not live near a team that is premier league material tend to support their local team, plus one of the bigger teams as well (trust me im from near the original Boston Lincolnshire, its about as far away from a premier league ground as you can get in England)



Leeds is the 4th largest metro arn at least one of these fights, if not more. And there is always drama on the final day. ea in the UK, and it hasnt had a Premier league team for quite a few years now, and guess what the amount of money in the Premier league keeps increasing, because there is interest in all the teams, there is normally something riding on every game (Going for the title, qualifying top 4, Europa League, Survival) and it is not normally until a couple of games from the seasons end that any team can be considered to not be i
 
Old 06-14-2013, 05:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tamotu View Post
If there was to be a team in Knoxville, considering 20 team leagues, plus certain cities having more than one team, then it would be overachieving to be in the 3rd division, lets alone the 1st.
There will be no 20 team professional sports league in the US

That would be underutilizing your markets

You have enough large markets to support teams and the TV stations, advertisers, corporate backers are going to want access to those markets

You have to account for how large the US is - both in geography and available markets

You'll never fully capatize on revenue potential by limiting to just 20 teams ..... just doesn't make sense, especially when you consider that there are canadian teams as well

Once the new NY team forms the league will be at 20 teams as it is .... and that is excluding markets like Miami, Phoenix, Minneapolis, St. Louis, etc.
 
Old 06-14-2013, 05:40 PM
 
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Another thing to keep in mind when you trying to model the EPL into the US

The entire EPL covers a geography about that is roughly 1/4 the size of Texas

They do cram a good amount of relatively good sized cities in that limited land mass though

The EPL has a bunch of markets that are in metros that have populations of 200,000 - 400,000

In the US those markets are insignificant ...... we don't jam a dozen clubs into a single city ...... London has 13 teams, 6 played in the premiership

In the US you can't have a 20 team league and then throw 6 of those teams in NY and another 5 in LA, 3 in Chicago, etc
 
Old 06-14-2013, 10:50 PM
 
17 posts, read 12,077 times
Reputation: 10
Im not suggesting you do

My point is merely that it is ridiculous to suggest that a league syystem like that wouldnt work because you would have a team from Knoxville replacing one from Seattle


There are of course many reasons why it wouldnt, but that is not one of them
 
Old 06-15-2013, 06:25 AM
 
782 posts, read 935,797 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tamotu View Post
Im not suggesting you do

My point is merely that it is ridiculous to suggest that a league syystem like that wouldnt work because you would have a team from Knoxville replacing one from Seattle


There are of course many reasons why it wouldnt, but that is not one of them

That's the thing though, it absolute is one of the reasons that it wouldn't work. Soccer, although growing, is a marginal sport in the US, and one where most of these teams are not yet even profitable. Advertising and television exposure are hugely important to the growth of the sport, and neither networks or advertisers are going to sign up when there is every chance that a Houston, LA, Chicago, DC market could be replaced by a Knoxville, Buffalo, Des Moines market.

Are there other reasons as well? Absolutely. Such as the fact that no American owner is going to saddle up and pay the huge cost of an expansion fee to start a new team if he knows that there is every chance that when his new team struggles they get relegated to the second tier.

The whole "it works everywhere else" argument is ignorant. It works everywhere else because it has been done that way everywhere else for over 100 years basically. In America we have our own 130+ year history with sport, and we don't relegate teams. The Kansas City Royals or Houston Astros don't get replaced by the Durham Bulls. American sports fans haven't been brought up on that, and they won't accept that by and large either. Yes, we soccer fanatics can enjoy and love the global game, but the non-soccer fan who we are trying to appeal to in order to expand the base of fans in this nation don't get it, and they won't accept it.
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