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Old 08-09-2014, 10:45 PM
 
Location: Tejas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldous9 View Post
We out played Portugal. Eight years is a long time.
We did in our hole out play Portugal.
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Old 08-10-2014, 07:44 AM
 
Location: Castlederp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldous9 View Post
I somewhat agree with you. But I think there is something unique about the American attitude. A country's football team mirrors its culture. The Germans are efficient, the Brazilians flamboyant, the Americans have a great work rate. Look at England. They get down a goal and you can see it in their body language. They start to play demoralized and the English pessimism sets in.

I'm not saying that by 2022 the USNT will be contenders to win the World Cup. I want to pull that back a little. But I think they will be contending in the sense that they could beat anyone.
I agree that the American attitude certainly helps and you don't seem to be phased by the pressure

I just think there is an enormous step up from being able to beat anyone on a particular day, and having to do that 3/4 times to win a world cup
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Old 08-10-2014, 08:36 PM
 
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^
Yes, a very very difficult step. Perhaps the 'JK' era will jump start the US program to develop more and more technically gifted players which is needed to catapult the national team to dealing with the world's elite teams. Who knows what we'll see as to players who can perhaps take us to the next level. No doubt they are being 'developed' now.

That is why I think it is crucial that the US gets the 'program house' in order as we go on the quest. It has to be done for the long term with a window of years and simply not 'tomorrow'. Surely the dropping of Donovan was a signal on that. He of course did well but it is time to move on. And at this point and for the future it would be interesting if Donovan stays with the US program either in some sort of teaching, scouting or back-room position. I'd think he can offer much to the next generation of players.
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Old 08-11-2014, 06:33 AM
 
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Investing on the youth programs is essential but not enough to be a serious contender for a WC win. As mentioned, many other countries are doing that for years and are still not contenders. IMO, you need a balance of 3 attributes to be a contender:

1-World Class talent. Wait, how about Italy 2006 then? What kind of team wins a WC with a player like Materazzi as the top scorer? The only thing they had close to world class players were in their defense and Buffon was probably their best player but they were very strong on attribute 2, and Italy have always have number 3.

2-Tactical excellence. The current Germany is a classic fit here, unless you think Schweinsteiger, Muller, and company are top world class players. They are good but I don't think they are anywhere near Messi, CR7, James, Neymar, Benzema, etc. When you take very good players like the Germans and build a well organized and focused team with great chemistry, you can't go wrong. They have number 3 for sure.

3-Experience and strong WC culture (tradition). This one is more complicated for Americans to understand because, in WC soccer, hard work and traning may not be enough as opposed to what Americans are used for other sports. There is a mystic nature about this and I can't completely understand it sometimes even though I've been a soccer fan since 6, but I know tradition in soccer does count. That said, number 3 can be overcome by a strong 1 and 2, do you want a classic example? Tiki-taka Spain!!! France and Netherlands have historically always being considered WC contenders with much stronger tradition than Spain, yet the Spanish were able to pull a win.

Last edited by Indyking; 08-11-2014 at 07:22 AM..
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Old 08-11-2014, 08:41 AM
 
Location: IL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indyking View Post
Investing on the youth programs is essential but not enough to be a serious contender for a WC win. As mentioned, many other countries are doing that for years and are still not contenders. IMO, you need a balance of 3 attributes to be a contender:

1-World Class talent. Wait, how about Italy 2006 then? What kind of team wins a WC with a player like Materazzi as the top scorer? The only thing they had close to world class players were in their defense and Buffon was probably their best player but they were very strong on attribute 2, and Italy have always have number 3.

2-Tactical excellence. The current Germany is a classic fit here, unless you think Schweinsteiger, Muller, and company are top world class players. They are good but I don't think they are anywhere near Messi, CR7, James, Neymar, Benzema, etc. When you take very good players like the Germans and build a well organized and focused team with great chemistry, you can't go wrong. They have number 3 for sure.

3-Experience and strong WC culture (tradition). This one is more complicated for Americans to understand because, in WC soccer, hard work and traning may not be enough as opposed to what Americans are used for other sports. There is a mystic nature about this and I can't completely understand it sometimes even though I've been a soccer fan since 6, but I know tradition in soccer does count. That said, number 3 can be overcome by a strong 1 and 2, do you want a classic example? Tiki-taka Spain!!! France and Netherlands have historically always being considered WC contenders with much stronger tradition than Spain, yet the Spanish were able to pull a win.
Regarding #1...Italy 2006 is a testament that luck is a factor in winning the World Cup. They had an easy road most of the way...a pretty easy group, then Australia, then Ukraine. Then more difficult games only at the end.

#2...teams with many REALLY good players can beat teams with one great player surrounded by good players

Regarding #3...I think high pressure experience is a larger factor than WC culture. The players from Spain played a lot of high pressure games at the club level and many of them play together at the club level. I believe this experience is vastly more important than WC culture.
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Old 08-11-2014, 08:48 AM
 
Location: Castlederp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indyking View Post
Investing on the youth programs is essential but not enough to be a serious contender for a WC win. As mentioned, many other countries are doing that for years and are still not contenders. IMO, you need a balance of 3 attributes to be a contender:

1-World Class talent. Wait, how about Italy 2006 then? What kind of team wins a WC with a player like Materazzi as the top scorer? The only thing they had close to world class players were in their defense and Buffon was probably their best player but they were very strong on attribute 2, and Italy have always have number 3.

2-Tactical excellence. The current Germany is a classic fit here, unless you think Schweinsteiger, Muller, and company are top world class players. They are good but I don't think they are anywhere near Messi, CR7, James, Neymar, Benzema, etc. When you take very good players like the Germans and build a well organized and focused team with great chemistry, you can't go wrong. They have number 3 for sure.

3-Experience and strong WC culture (tradition). This one is more complicated for Americans to understand because, in WC soccer, hard work and traning may not be enough as opposed to what Americans are used for other sports. There is a mystic nature about this and I can't completely understand it sometimes even though I've been a soccer fan since 6, but I know tradition in soccer does count. That said, number 3 can be overcome by a strong 1 and 2, do you want a classic example? Tiki-taka Spain!!! France and Netherlands have historically always being considered WC contenders with much stronger tradition than Spain, yet the Spanish were able to pull a win.
Agree
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Old 08-11-2014, 08:54 AM
 
750 posts, read 923,296 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by almost3am View Post
Regarding #1...Italy 2006 is a testament that luck is a factor in winning the World Cup. They had an easy road most of the way...a pretty easy group, then Australia, then Ukraine. Then more difficult games only at the end.

#2...teams with many REALLY good players can beat teams with one great player surrounded by good players

Regarding #3...I think high pressure experience is a larger factor than WC culture. The players from Spain played a lot of high pressure games at the club level and many of them play together at the club level. I believe this experience is vastly more important than WC culture.
Yes, Italy's road was lucky and so was Argentina's in this past WC, but the Italians managed to beat France in the final. France had a better team though.

Your statement about #2, yes, that's what I meant by tactical excellence, great chemistry. You don't need a team with some world class players to play well as long as you have good quality players in general to be able to maintain a strong chemistry.

Isn't high pressure experience connected to WC culture at some extent? I mean, these countries with WC traditional have most of the players competing in top European clubs with a lot pressure.
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Old 08-11-2014, 08:16 PM
 
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Some good points there.

Relating it to the US situation tells me that the country has not reached that so-called 'tipping point' where it would enable it to move on upwards and forward in WC competition.

I agree with talent, tactical excellence and experience as important qualities in the quest. I'd just add psychological strength and that probably would come from consistency in winning games and gaining and using the resulting experience to power ahead.

All in all the essence of 'champions' surely lies in the previous qualities mentioned but usually the teams that are great winners have a chemistry as noted that simply fits to the time and the goals wanted. I don't think that chemistry can be taught didactically. It simply flows organically from the players as they do what they can do well.

Can the US be champions? Surely with a lot of hard work and belief. As the Germans did it with great organization I'd say it can also happen with the US.

And I'd guess international football success is like making fine wine. Takes time to make a great vintage. The grapes and vines need to be nurtured constantly and the attention to details count. I'm hoping the US won't scrimp and that they will always 'pay attention' to those details. It's what champions always do. And counting on JK to get the wind in the US soccer sails.
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Old 08-13-2014, 02:01 PM
 
235 posts, read 408,927 times
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I notice in this thread that nobody has acknowledged (or even realised) that one of the main reasons Klinsmann didn't choose Landycakes for the WC squad is due to him basically walking out on the team and taking a "sabbatical" to ponder his future during the most critical phase of WC qualifiers. If you were the coach, would you have faith in someone who has to consider whether they care enough to represent their motherland in the world's most important athletic competition? Your boys are battling in Guatemala and you choose to sit home? Hell no, Klinny was correct in playing guys who want to give their all and it showed.

Sounds ironic for a guy who accomplished so much domestically, that his legacy to me is a guy who had a lot more potential he never realized. It's why Dempsey should be the face of the US team we remember.
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Old 08-13-2014, 04:01 PM
 
Location: Castlederp
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Donovan only cared about his own image.. not the US
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