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Old 08-10-2015, 01:17 PM
 
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People don't realize that in Europe, the second division teams and lower first division teams have long histories and deep ties to their local communities. Back in the day, there really wasn't big money in the sport and most of the players were basically locals. So they can survive with smaller stadiums and being relegated.

In the U.S., if a MLS team is relegated, loses its TV money, and loses its top tier schedule, it best players will leave, and it will go bankrupt.
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Old 08-12-2015, 09:58 AM
 
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According to recent articles in the UK Telegraph, commissioners of the NASL (2nd Division) and NPSL (4th Division) have been discussing the possibility of having promotion/relegation between the two leagues.

This idea seems impractical to me.

- The NPSL is a "semi-pro" (read: mostly amateur) league that relies on college kids during the summer months when school isn't in session.
- The NASL plays a good portion of its spring and fall seasons during the academic calendar. How will NPSL clubs be able to play a full NASL schedule (after being promoted) when most of their players wouldn't even be available for much of the NASL season?

- The NPSL consists of many regional leagues that minimize travel costs.
- The NASL spans multiple time zones and will need to add teams in the Pacific Time Zone if they wish to retain their Division 2 status. It's highly doubtful that NPSL owners, who are currently operating on shoestring budgets, would want to take on the massive travel increases that would come with NASL participation.

This seems nothing more than a publicity stunt... no different than Ryanair's CEO talking about 10 transcontinental flights that will never happen. Am I missing anything here?
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Old 08-16-2015, 02:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slim04 View Post
People don't realize that in Europe, the second division teams and lower first division teams have long histories and deep ties to their local communities. Back in the day, there really wasn't big money in the sport and most of the players were basically locals. So they can survive with smaller stadiums and being relegated.

In the U.S., if a MLS team is relegated, loses its TV money, and loses its top tier schedule, it best players will leave, and it will go bankrupt.
It's best players may leave but I don't know how you could say every team relegated from MLS to D2 would go bankrupt. What's your evidence for this? 95% of soccer leagues on the planet use pro/rel. How many relegated teams go bankrupt? Of those that have gone bankrupt how many dissolved?

Certainly teams in any league can go bankrupt. The LA Dodgers went bankrupt under Frank McCourt.
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Old 08-16-2015, 02:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Earn Your Own Keep View Post
According to recent articles in the UK Telegraph, commissioners of the NASL (2nd Division) and NPSL (4th Division) have been discussing the possibility of having promotion/relegation between the two leagues.

This idea seems impractical to me.

- The NPSL is a "semi-pro" (read: mostly amateur) league that relies on college kids during the summer months when school isn't in session.
- The NASL plays a good portion of its spring and fall seasons during the academic calendar. How will NPSL clubs be able to play a full NASL schedule (after being promoted) when most of their players wouldn't even be available for much of the NASL season?

- The NPSL consists of many regional leagues that minimize travel costs.
- The NASL spans multiple time zones and will need to add teams in the Pacific Time Zone if they wish to retain their Division 2 status. It's highly doubtful that NPSL owners, who are currently operating on shoestring budgets, would want to take on the massive travel increases that would come with NASL participation.

This seems nothing more than a publicity stunt... no different than Ryanair's CEO talking about 10 transcontinental flights that will never happen. Am I missing anything here?
Not a publicity stunt. Peterson understands what will grow the sport in this country, unlike Garber, whose grasp of the global game is very limited (and bizarrely ethnocentric).

But if you read the article he's not saying that pro/rel between NASL and another league is going to happen anytime soon. It's about creating the proper soccer culture and infrastructure that will spurn growth.

I'm skeptical that pro/rel could have a huge impact in this country without including the top league for the simple reason that globally pro/rel always includes the top league. There has to be that big reward.

But, pro/rel between NASL and another league below it would still gave a big impact on growth. Clubs could be created organically at a low level and get promoted to the NASL. It removes a huge barrier to entry and brands the NASL as an open league similar to the rest of the soccer world.
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Old 08-16-2015, 02:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Earn Your Own Keep View Post
Apples and oranges. European leagues don't have a situation where owners invested upwards of $100 million to gain access to the top-flight. Relegation would be disastrous for every MLS owner who risked that kind of money, only to see his club demoted to the second division (and replaced with a NASL side that lacks the finances to compete in Major League Soccer). MLS administrators and franchise owners are rightfully opposed to pro/rel because too much money is at stake.

Also, we don't have to be like Europe. The "closed league" model been successful in this country for a very long time. There is a better chance that MLS will fully adopt a MLB-style farm system, where undeserving markets can still be connected to the first division via the minor leagues. The entire USSF pyramid could be modeled after baseball's pyramid, where you have farm teams at every level (AAA, AA, A). MLS2 clubs (e.g. LA2, NYRB2, TFC2) can play in the second division while select non-MLS markets (e.g. Sacramento, San Antonio, Detroit, Nashville, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chattanooga, Austin, Tampa, etc.) can have farm teams in Double A soccer. This seems more sustainable than allowing non-MLS markets to run their own independent clubs at huge financial losses.
In a word. Too bad. Whatever exuberant fee MLS teams had to pay to get into the MLS cartel is irrelevant as to whether or not pro/rel would work (it would. It works everywhere). Those fees that MLS clubs paid has given them a very good head start to create theiir club histories and build fan bases. I don't really understand the, "we've put millions into the club so you can't relegate us" argument. European owners put millions into their clubs as well. Check the books of a middle of the table EPL team and you'll find they put more into their clubs the last five years than any MLS team has paid to get into the MLS. Your argument is a very silly one once you examine this fact.

What's your evidence that an MLS style structure would work for soccer in the US? These are two different sports with different cultures and narratives. Soccer fans in the US are socialized into the culture of the sport by a global narrative. That's not how fans of baseball relate to the game. US pro/rel advocates can point to systems and structures within the sport of soccer as evidence. What can you point to?
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Old 08-16-2015, 02:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TAM88 View Post
I follow the Premiere League the closet and really don't see what's so great about promotion and relegation. Sure it gives the bottom 6 or 7 teams something to play for down the stretch, but is that something really to be proud of? I think it's kind of sad when the teams that do avoid relegation and their fans get excited and act like it's some kind of accomplishment to finish 15th, or 16th. For the clubs that do get promoted, more often than not they end up getting sent back down after a season or two.


What happens without pro/rel in the English system? Answer: The same 20 teams in the league every year. The rest of the clubs in England shut out from the competition. Depending on what year you draw that line it could mean no Manchester City, no Chelsea etc. But most importantly without pro/rel the popularlty of the game dwindles. When your local club can't access the top competition it gives you little reason to care about it. Without pro/rel the English pyramid would collapse.
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Old 08-17-2015, 10:01 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Aldous9 View Post
What happens without pro/rel in the English system? Answer: The same 20 teams in the league every year.
I agree. But bringing it to the American reality, I doubt it would be like this and here's the reason:

Geography. Out of the "big nations" in football (soccer), only two have a geography that can be compared to the American one - Brazil and Argentina. While Spain has 2 teams that dominate every singe year, England has 3 or 4, Italy has 3, those two have lots of dominating teams - Argentina has 10 and Brazil has 12(all of these 10/12 are constantly fighting for title/spot in Libertadores cup and also there is always one fighting against relegation, which makes the league exciting). Also, although these teams are very dominant, there are also other teams that have already been champions/have had a nice participation in Libertadores.
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Old 08-17-2015, 11:19 AM
 
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In Europe, the teams at the bottom of the top leagues have comparable stadiums, budgets, and overhead costs of the best teams in the next lower divisions. So if they get relegated, they cut or sell the most expensive players and can still survive.

In the U.S., all the teams in the top league have comparable stadiums, budgets, and overhead costs, while a handful will spend more for marquis players and get more sponsorship money for being in high profile areas.

The drop-off to the next minor league team is gigantic. To give you some context, in MLB, a single executive typically makes more money than the entire payroll of their highest minor league team. So to be relegated, and not playing top tier teams, they'll lose all their sponsors, season ticket holder will abandon them, and they won't get any TV money. Yet they still have the high major league infrastructure costs.
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Old 08-17-2015, 06:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Phelven View Post
I agree. But bringing it to the American reality, I doubt it would be like this and here's the reason:

Geography. Out of the "big nations" in football (soccer), only two have a geography that can be compared to the American one - Brazil and Argentina. While Spain has 2 teams that dominate every singe year, England has 3 or 4, Italy has 3, those two have lots of dominating teams - Argentina has 10 and Brazil has 12(all of these 10/12 are constantly fighting for title/spot in Libertadores cup and also there is always one fighting against relegation, which makes the league exciting). Also, although these teams are very dominant, there are also other teams that have already been champions/have had a nice participation in Libertadores.
Geography is a challenge for American soccer leagues right now. How would it be more of a challenge if there was pro/rel between the leagues?
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Old 08-17-2015, 06:26 PM
 
1,496 posts, read 1,499,518 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slim04 View Post
In Europe, the teams at the bottom of the top leagues have comparable stadiums, budgets, and overhead costs of the best teams in the next lower divisions. So if they get relegated, they cut or sell the most expensive players and can still survive.

In the U.S., all the teams in the top league have comparable stadiums, budgets, and overhead costs, while a handful will spend more for marquis players and get more sponsorship money for being in high profile areas.

The drop-off to the next minor league team is gigantic. To give you some context, in MLB, a single executive typically makes more money than the entire payroll of their highest minor league team. So to be relegated, and not playing top tier teams, they'll lose all their sponsors, season ticket holder will abandon them, and they won't get any TV money. Yet they still have the high major league infrastructure costs.
this is solved by the economic trigger model for implementing pro/rel. It goes like this: Pro/rel between MLS and NASL is automatically triggered (for the following season) when NASL has 20 teams, 3/4 that play in SSS, and with avg attendance at 8k (or insert another #).
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