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In some ways this quote begins to address your point #3. Isn't this always the problem? That is, we fall into the trap of thinking the question is simple, thus the answer must be also. Social injustice is built (and gets reinscribed) on such a level of simplicity.
On the surface, your question is simple. However, you have to realize that seeing the "package" is only the first step. It is only when you critically examine the "contents" of that package that you begin to realize how "layered" this issue is.
If you read all the posts before your post, it seems too simplistic and too much of a logical leap to infer that "Blacks are stupid," or to think that people are going to respond to your question in a simple yes/no fashion. Sorry if this is a reality check, but there was nothing simple about your question.
Clearly, the presence of the confederate flag on the State House grounds is (and has always been) a powerful symbol of racism.
Clearly you haven't examined the contents of the package. Your last sentence has no historical significance whatsoever.
It seems that education is in order because too many make superficial conclusions just as you did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by davey123
I initially posted to respond to Geechie North's post:
The point you raise about the US flag is an important one. It is, however, a separate discussion. I state this because it is always too easy to lose focus of this issue. That happens because other issues are brought up to obfuscate the original point. In my earlier post I used the terms denial and rationalization. This type of obfuscation is one of the key props for denial and rationalization.
You mentioned logic so I assumed you wanted to be logical. You would need to peel back the layers for both flags to be logically consistent.
Both may have some ugly layers and accept responsibility for that, but you will find that neither flag is, and never was, a symbol for racism nor slavery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by davey123
As mentioned earlier, the confederate flag symbolizes many things to many people. Undeniably, it has historically been used as a symbol of racism and hate. Geechie North's post points out that its presence on the State House's grounds symbolizes racism. It is that point that I did not want to get lost.
Again, no, the flag has not been historically used as a symbol of racism and hate. That is a myth perpetuated by misinformed citizens and a few extremists representing it as such.
Admittedly, when I see a guy with a flag on his truck, I will keep an eye on him, because I don't know if he as an individual who has succumbed to the myth that it's a symbol of hate. But being on the memorial on the state grounds doesn't bother me at all.
Black history has been whitewashed enough, and if citizens are too lazy to research the truth, perhaps the state should do more to educate folks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by davey123
As you probably know, critical awareness and acknowledgment that an injustice exist is always an important first step. It requires seeing beyond the "package." It requires seeing through the obfuscations.
Yes, it does...the obfuscations of citizens trying to label it a symbol of hate when historically it has never been that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by davey123
Yes, it should be removed!
Then the memorial should be removed as well. I don't really care either way, but folks should know what they're talking about before demanding it be removed. The fact is, most do not.
You didn't say, so I conclude that you have done nothing to convince the state legislature to remove it.
Well, this thread has made it thru almost 2 pages, and nobody has yet tossed out the "my heritage" BS, so at least we may be making some progress.
Of course it needs to come off of state grounds. It is without question the most divisive and inflammatory American symbol that exists today, and SC should be ashamed to continue associating it with our state government. The flag is a part of our history, and we have many state museums that can do an excellent job of telling our story, including the role the Confederate flag has played in it. An attempt to do that on the grounds of the state capitol will always be too politically charged and racially charged, to be effective.
If humans choose to remain willfully ignorant, and perpetuate myths, then yes, it will mostly be viewed as racially charged.
I will never agree to compromise principle because folks choose willful ignorance.
If the flag makes some people feel guilty or whatever, that's too bad, IMO. That is a personal problem. Deal with it rather than trying to whitewash more history.
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Originally Posted by PawleysDude
I'm sure that's supposed to mean something, but I guess I'm not smart enough to figure it out.
If you say so.
Bottom line is personally I don't care what they do with it. It seems that opponents are doing nothing more than whining about it on internet forums.
it stands for different things to different people. that is the only reality here. people all over the world, across history, worked 14 year old black kids to death for a profit.
if we vilify the confederate flag because of slavery, then what becomes of the American flag? Do the Brits feel the same way about the Union Jack? Slavery occured under all three.
and assuming we rid ourselves of this confederate symbol, do we remove all symbols of the confederacy, or just this one? what is so controversial about this confederate symbol in particular, and not any of the others?
the lack of logical answers to these questions leads me to believe that it isn't about slavery at all, it is about emotions, guilt, and revenge. A lot of folks out there want the confederacy to be the embodiment of American racism, like if they are against the confederate flag, then they're absolved of our collective racist American past.
The Brits abolished slavery before the US. The North abolished slavery peacefully; the South had to be conquered in order to do so.
And the war, 'State's Rights', and any other euphemism you can use were/are all about slavery.
That's called History. It is an indisputable fact.
We should abolish all monuments/symbols of the failed nation founded on using people as work animals, and teach the children how wrong it was.
I believe the Germans do that about nazism; for example where is our monument to the Stono Rebellion, etc?
I hope there is one now, but doubt it. Hell, I grew-up where it happened and never even knew of it until I was in my 30's, and living out of SC.
I think of the Confederate flag as a big banner waved intimidatingly at KKK rallies as much as I think of if as representative of the Confederacy for which several of my ancestor fought, especially since those in power never condemned the KKK for waving it. If I were black I would be offended, too. I'm offended enough as it is. With approximately 30% of this state being black, the flag must be removed from the tax-payer-funded State House grounds if we are to ever move on. I'm over 50. There's hope.
I think of the Confederate flag as a big banner waved intimidatingly at KKK rallies as much as I think of if as representative of the Confederacy for which several of my ancestor fought, especially since those in power never condemned the KKK for waving it.
That's the biggest problem. Too many are associating it with extremists.
Why let the extremists take that away?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Columbiadata
If I were black I would be offended, too.
You can't possibly know that. Many blacks are not offended; and some had ancestors who fought. It's that whitewashed history that has everyone so confused.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Columbiadata
I'm offended enough as it is. With approximately 30% of this state being black, the flag must be removed from the tax-payer-funded State House grounds if we are to ever move on. I'm over 50. There's hope.
I'm okay with it if they choose to remove it, even though it is there in an historical context. If history offends, too bad, IMO. You know what happens when you forget history.
Again, no, the flag has not been historically used as a symbol of racism and hate. That is a myth perpetuated by misinformed citizens and a few extremists representing it as such.
...folks should know what they're talking about before demanding it be removed. The fact is, most do not.
Perhaps you are not looking closely enough at what I wrote. I suggested that the confederate flag has historically been (and is presently) a symbol of racism. You believe that I am misinformed; yet I believe that the misinformation lies on your side.
How would you define symbol or symbolism? If symbolism suggest that something has taken on conventional significance, then that's something that we may all need to pay attention to. Clearly the confederate flag symbolizes different things to different people. Part of the reason why this issue is so contentious is because there is a clashing of meanings people ascribe to the flag.
I have not done an empirical study on this. Yet, I feel confident in saying that if we look at the American context, we will find that even the most ardent supporter of the confederate flag will agree that a large proportion of Americans are strongly opposed to the confederate flag. The proponents of the confederate flag may disagree with their opposition. Nevertheless, their opposition is real - and quite pervasive. Again, the most ardent supporter of the confederate flag surely knows that is the case.
I would contend that for many opponents the confederate flag is a symbol of racism and hate. You probably would argue that opponents are misinformed. But, does that really matter in the larger context? The fact is that the symbolism is very real (and has very real consequences).
Has the confederate flag flying on the grounds of the state house hurt SC? Of course it has. You can believe that opponents of the confederate flag are misinformed all you want. Yet, the fact remains that many see it as a symbol of racism. And, as long as the confederate flag flies on the grounds of the state house, its negative symbolism will always plague SC.
South Carolina should keep the stars and bars flying high. It represents their culture and there beliefs in states rights. I also believe in states rights and it's their right to fly the flag. It only offends people who are looking for something to be offended by.
I'm against the idea of removing the flag simply because the NAACP decided it should be done. I'm in favor of removing the flag because I don't understand the purpose that it serves in the first place. We have a monument that marks that part of our history as a state. Why add a very sensitive symbol to that memorial?
In 1994 only 24 of the total 124 house reps were black. So where do you get the assertion that "They did approve of it?"
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