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I don't think Greenville is a superior market to Charlotte, and I have never said that it is. What I did say was that when Whole Foods was looking at new markets, Greenville was more appealing to them than Charlotte. This is quite obvious since they put a store in Greenville long before Charlotte. I don't think my statement can be disputed. Please know that nobody is criticizing your precious Queen City, or saying that it is inferior to anything. In fact, I even stated that factors outside of Charlotte's control surely contributed to the decision by Whole Foods. How can you find fault with that?
Your bolder statement said that the Greenville market was superior to the Charlotte market for Whole Foods and SWA. Not sure how else to take that other than yo think Greenville is a superior market. I agree that a lack of available site in Charlotte or gates at CLT are likely causes. But, your friend said that because retailers chose Greenville over Cola, it was evidence that the market was better. I simply showed why that statement was wrong using Greenville/Charlotte as an example. In fact, you were the one who wrote the silly bent out of shape comment about Charlotte. Seems like we are in agreement.
I don't really understand what the arrangement of the counties have to do with anything. At the end of the day, a multinodal CSA is a multinodal CSA. The largest urbanized area, Greenville, is still in the center of it all. If the Upstate needs an asterick, then so does the Triangle and Triad. I don't think any sort of reality is distorted when you keep in mind that CSAs are only meant to quantify regional commuting patterns.
Either way, regional population figures--which can be measured in a few different ways aside from CSA--obviously factor into the decision-making process in terms of where retailers locate, as do other figures. I'm not sure if there's any way to say how much it counts in relation to the other factors however.
If you are using CSA only for commuting patterns, I agree with you. However, if you use it to define the population of an area relative to others, it does need clarification. As I said earlier, Greenville becomes larger than some other cities when CSA is used, that is distorted. Other suggested retailers and business use CSA which is completely false on its own, trade area is a much larger factor for retailers. If you are a retailer like Apple, do you care who lives 70 miles from your location? That is why I have said you need an asterisk when using CSA, same for RDU (although I think their area is better connected. Bottom line is you have to understand what the number represents to determine if it is relevant. With regards to Greenville's CSA, I a not sure how relevant it is for anything other than a chamber moment.
[quote=Al G;32581638]Man; what's with GSP101? On the warpath again. Gotta be something wrong with that dude. Charlotte must be the greatest place on Earth. This tread had nothing to do with Charlotte, but here he goes again.
Last time I looked at a map Charlotte was in North Carolina not South Carolina, and yeah I know areas south of the border are a spill over from there, but still not in Charlotte.[/QUOT]
Al, go back to Charleston, you have not shown an ability to understand concepts that require a lot of thought. Don't waste anyone's time with your meaningless comments.
The original post by gsupstate noted that in-demand companies like Whole Foods, Apple, Westin, and Southwest located in Greenville before Columbia, and that the heavier population in the upstate had something to do with this. How can you deny that it didn't? Nobody said that population is the only factor in these decision. But as I'm sure you know, for just about all of these in-demand businesses, the initial screening process requires that a minimum population threshold be met.
Then you mentioned Charlotte (again). Please, stop with the Charlotte comparisons! Regarding Greenville getting Whole Foods and Southwest before Charlotte, you frequently like to portray posters on here as using that to say that they think Greenville is a better market. I know it might be hard for you to hear, since you view Charlotte as so superior to other markets in the Carolinas, but the reality is this: the Greenville market was more appealing than the Charlotte market for both Whole Foods and Southwest when they made the decision to locate in Greenville. I know that with 100% certainty, because if that weren't true, they would have located in Charlotte first, and not Greenville.
Now before you flip out and start talking about how Charlotte is larger, more upscale, has better malls, better companies, better people, and basically better everything than Greenville, and how anyone who says that Greenville is a more appealing market than Charlotte is misinformed and ignorant, please realize that I am not saying this as a criticism of the market in Charlotte. I am merely stating that the requirements for Whole Foods and Southwest to enter a market - which I am sure are quite specific - were not met in Charlotte at that time. With regards to Whole Foods, we know that Charlotte has probably had the proper population density and income levels in at least one area of town for the last decade or so to meet Whole Foods's requirements to open a store. But what Charlotte might not have had was the right space within that area of interest. Greenville did, and Greenville's store opened first. Good for Greenville.
Regarding Southwest, I don't know why you are hating on them. Whether you like it or not, they are a desirable airline. They are routinely the only airline to actually make a profit most years. I know you're proud of US Airways (AKA US Scare-ways) since CLT is one of their hubs, and that's great, but they are probably the worst airline with regard to on-time flights and customer service. Now that Southwest has finally started offering service to CLT, maybe the folks at US Airways will take notice of how well an airline can perform.
So let me get this straight. Columbia doesn't get stores because it's so spread out, yet others here keep saying that the upstate CSA population numbers shouldn't count because the area is so spread out without a dominant metro area. Then how does Greenville keep getting such great retailers, hotels, and restaurants to locate in the area - often times before such amazing metros like Charlotte gets them?
I never said Csa numbers don't count first of all, second of all I am referring to the sprawl of the Columbia urban center which is much larger land wise than Greenville's (Sandhills, Lexington) and since the popular shopping districts in Columbia (before downtown began taking off) were all far from each other, but in the same urban area. My comments were referring to the Upstate, not Greenville. Greenville itself is not very spread out at all, but since the Upstate with its multiple urban centers is very spread out along 85.
I also think there is no doubt that the income levels in Lexington and Irmo would absolutely qualify for a higher end retailer if areas of Greenville do.
If you are using CSA only for commuting patterns, I agree with you. However, if you use it to define the population of an area relative to others, it does need clarification. As I said earlier, Greenville becomes larger than some other cities when CSA is used, that is distorted. \.
Yeah, I agree. For one, the Charleston area isn't assigned a CSA, for some reason unknown. If it was, like the Greenville CSA has with EIGHT counties...Charleston could include Myrtle Beach, or Beaufort/Savannah. But, I guess he says people don't commute from Savannah/Beaufort to Charleston. Although I know many that do, and lots of the military folks go back and forth, etc.
And just using CSA, or MSA, where he brags how "big" Greenville is also is a bit cloudy. Because I've always wondered why if Gville is "bigger" than the Charleston MSA, why doesn't it "feel" that way? Charleston just feels like it's twice as big a city. Maybe the nearly 5,000,000 tourists. Or, spillover from Savannah's 12,000,000 tourists who make the 100 mile drive to see both cities (100 miles- same distance as Greenville's CSA).
I don't know. Just feels that way. First time I visited/walked the new renovated downtown Greenville, Main Street was really nice. But then I just thought...wheres the rest of it?? Columbia and Charlestons downtown and urban area just feels bigger.
Speaking of commuting, and Greenville's CSA- how many people commute from Gaffney to Seneca? Both are included. Or Laurens to Pickens?
No city or metro area should be judged much beyond about a 20 mile radius. After that, its not really the same place anymore.
If Columbia's CSA has 767,589 people in 6 counties
Greenville's CSA has 824,112 people in 10 counties
and Charleston's CSA has 664, 607 people in only 3 counties
What does that tell you? Just saying.
Im not sure what those 3 mean. But, I do know that the Charleston area and Savannah area both have a FAR higher human presence than their official residential population numbers, just from the huge influx of visitors. No telling how many extra people are in those cities on any given day, who aren't counted on the Census. Maybe why they "feel" bigger.
If you are using CSA only for commuting patterns, I agree with you. However, if you use it to define the population of an area relative to others, it does need clarification. As I said earlier, Greenville becomes larger than some other cities when CSA is used, that is distorted. Other suggested retailers and business use CSA which is completely false on its own, trade area is a much larger factor for retailers. If you are a retailer like Apple, do you care who lives 70 miles from your location? That is why I have said you need an asterisk when using CSA, same for RDU (although I think their area is better connected. Bottom line is you have to understand what the number represents to determine if it is relevant. With regards to Greenville's CSA, I a not sure how relevant it is for anything other than a chamber moment.
It seems to me that you're making a CSA out to be more than what it is. I've never seen any of the Greenville folks on here claim that Greenville by itself consists of 1.4 million people; same goes for Greensboro and Raleigh relative to their larger regional populations. CSAs are just a way of defining labor markets, but this will also roughly help to define retail, entertainment, recreation, etc. markets as well. I don't see how the Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson CSA needs clarification or an asterisk any more than any other similarly-sized CSA. You're losing me on this one.
Yeah, I agree. For one, the Charleston area isn't assigned a CSA, for some reason unknown. If it was, like the Greenville CSA has with EIGHT counties...Charleston could include Myrtle Beach, or Beaufort/Savannah. But, I guess he says people don't commute from Savannah/Beaufort to Charleston. Although I know many that do, and lots of the military folks go back and forth, etc.
Not in any appreciable numbers. Perhaps that would be different if I-95 went through Charleston on to Savannah, but as is, Highway 17 by itself isn't enough. And geography, plus infrastructure (roads), largely explains why Charleston doesn't have a CSA. The closest candidate for inclusion in a Charleston CSA would probably be Colleton County, but with the most populous part of the county (Walterboro) being located in the center of the county instead of towards the eastern edge and having no quick and easy direct highway access to Charleston, I don't really see it happening any time soon. And Georgetown County is already part of Myrtle Beach's MSA.
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And just using CSA, or MSA, where he brags how "big" Greenville is also is a bit cloudy. Because I've always wondered why if Gville is "bigger" than the Charleston MSA, why doesn't it "feel" that way? Charleston just feels like it's twice as big a city. Maybe the nearly 5,000,000 tourists. Or, spillover from Savannah's 12,000,000 tourists who make the 100 mile drive to see both cities (100 miles- same distance as Greenville's CSA).
I don't think it has to do with tourists, but mainly 1) the density of Charleston's core and 2) Charleston's geography, which acts to constrain development to a degree. Because a city like Greenville (and Columbia) is inland, it can sprawl in all directions which acts to diffuse the density of the central city. Also, Greenville's CBD isn't as jobs-rich as other similarly-sized cities; there's a lot of "jobs sprawl" in the area, combined with the heavy manufacturing presence that doesn't require office buildings downtown.
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No city or metro area should be judged much beyond about a 20 mile radius. After that, its not really the same place anymore.
I completely disagree, especially with regard to larger cities (go to Charlotte or Atlanta and see that 20 mile rule fly right out the window). First of all, realize that MSAs and CSAs are simply statistically defined labor markets, meaning they quantify commuting patterns from outlying areas. Urbanized areas characterize the built-up area without respect to municipal, county, or state boundaries and, IMO, comes closest to describing how big a place feels.
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Originally Posted by CD2013
Im not sure what those 3 mean. But, I do know that the Charleston area and Savannah area both have a FAR higher human presence than their official residential population numbers, just from the huge influx of visitors. No telling how many extra people are in those cities on any given day, who aren't counted on the Census. Maybe why they "feel" bigger.
Nor should they be counted because they don't live there. And again, I don't think the number of tourists has much to do with it. Myrtle Beach attracts more tourists annually than both Charleston and Savannah, but it doesn't feel bigger than both (or Greenville and Columbia).
It seems to me that you're making a CSA out to be more than what it is. I've never seen any of the Greenville folks on here claim that Greenville by itself consists of 1.4 million people; same goes for Greensboro and Raleigh relative to their larger regional populations. CSAs are just a way of defining labor markets, but this will also roughly help to define retail, entertainment, recreation, etc. markets as well. I don't see how the Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson CSA needs clarification or an asterisk any more than any other similarly-sized CSA. You're losing me on this one.
I disagree, I don't think I am making out anything more than it is, not sure why you would say that. This thread started with someone talking about the largely populated upstate with 1.4m folks, others chimed in with "heavily populated" an other strong adjectives. Some took the opportunity to differentiate Greenville with Cola . I said then as I would today, it is a stretch and gives the wrong impression to just take a big number without looking at the components or what is being asked. With every number, understanding how it is formed and determining if it is usable is the first step. Some equities post great stock prices relative to each other, understanding the ratios etc....is the key as is understanding the area components and drivers.
I know the numbers and how they are calculated but, on a relative basis, it distorts what is reality especially if you are trying to define labor markets, recreation areas, etc.....Retailers look at trade areas and typically look at a 2-5 mile radius as the primary market of a store. For larger stores or projects like Magnolia in Greenville, this circle may be a little larger due to some destination stores like Cabelas. But a CSA, typically no. If you are looking at a 200 person office relo in Greenville, your primary labor market is Greenville and maybe western Spartanburg, not Gaffney or Oconee. Recreation may be more regional depending on the type of event or venue. In that case, I am sure Time Warner Cable Arena is not using CSA but more of the 100 mile radius 7m+ population around Charlotte. So, that is why I see using this number as requiring an asterisk. Comparing one region that basically follows an interstate has a different dynamics than on centered around a large urban core. Anyone looking at a CSA number expecting to see an Oklahoma City size downtown in the upstate will be very disappointed with a downtown that would basically be suburb in cities with CSAs in that range.
As for the Greenville folks, this is straight from the Greenville Chamber's website....... "The region's population was 1,362,073 at the 2010 Census. The Upstate is the fastest growing region in the state, and given its strategic position between Atlanta and Charlotte, future development and growth prospects are bright." It (1m+) has been used for as long as I can remember as has that "we are the fastest growing" statement which I am sure the Charleston folks may have a problem with.
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