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Old 03-28-2014, 06:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AddaVisser View Post
IsNull, the point is treason was committed when they violated Article 3, Section 3. Article 1, Section 10. Article 4, Section 4. and Article 6 of the Constitution, addition to the seizure of numerous Federal arsenals and posts, including the U.S. Mint in New Orleans.

Please explain how violating those articles of the Constitution which explicitly lay out what is treason is in fact not treason? You're right there was a gray area for secession however there was no gray area for what constituted treason. You seem to think I'm using treason and secession interchangeably. If that's the case then I want you to know I'm not.

Because you can't commit treason if you're not bound by the Constitution. The right to leave the Union was in question, treason charges were never tried against any State or government official of the Confederacy. Also remember that many of the people caught up in the Civil War and the discussion of its legality were grandchildren of those who fought the Revolutionary War. The idea of leaving a government body that no longer served them to begin their own was very fresh in their hearts.

Even Abraham Lincoln stated in 1841 while serving the House of Representatives:

Quote:
Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better ... This most sacred right, a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world.
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Old 03-28-2014, 12:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IsNull View Post
Because you can't commit treason if you're not bound by the Constitution. The right to leave the Union was in question, treason charges were never tried against any State or government official of the Confederacy. Also remember that many of the people caught up in the Civil War and the discussion of its legality were grandchildren of those who fought the Revolutionary War. The idea of leaving a government body that no longer served them to begin their own was very fresh in their hearts.

Even Abraham Lincoln stated in 1841 while serving the House of Representatives:

Do you not realize that at least six of the seceding states (FL, AL, GA, LA, AR, NC) seized federal property by force of arms (which is explicitly labeled treasonous in the Constitution) prior to seceding from the Union, i.e. before those states passed ordinances of secession. Also consider that in 1859, John Brown was tried and hanged by the state of Virginia for treason for his attempt to seize federal property—namely, the federal arsenal at Harpers Ferry. So southern states weren't treasonous when they seized federal property prior to secession? It’s ironic that when John Brown attacked the armory and the arsenal, he would be captured and tried by Virginia, and one of the charges was treason, treason against the state... however when states do it they're not bound to the Constitution. Oh ok...


Again you seem to be using or think I'm using secession and treason interchangeably when I'm not. The southern states committed treason based on what is explicitly laid out in the Constitution.

Last edited by AddaVisser; 03-28-2014 at 12:24 PM..
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Old 03-28-2014, 05:13 PM
 
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I would agree that those State governments that seized Federal lands prior to leaving the Union did commit treason for those actions. I'm not saying they made the wisest choices to capture lands a week before signing the declaration.

But a State seizing lands after leaving, I believe that was what was debatable.

sorry replying via phone...
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Old 03-29-2014, 06:11 AM
 
22,769 posts, read 26,219,013 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AddaVisser View Post
Do you not realize that at least six of the seceding states (FL, AL, GA, LA, AR, NC) seized federal property by force of arms (which is explicitly labeled treasonous in the Constitution) prior to seceding from the Union, i.e. before those states passed ordinances of secession. Also consider that in 1859, John Brown was tried and hanged by the state of Virginia for treason for his attempt to seize federal property—namely, the federal arsenal at Harpers Ferry. So southern states weren't treasonous when they seized federal property prior to secession? It’s ironic that when John Brown attacked the armory and the arsenal, he would be captured and tried by Virginia, and one of the charges was treason, treason against the state... however when states do it they're not bound to the Constitution. Oh ok...


Again you seem to be using or think I'm using secession and treason interchangeably when I'm not. The southern states committed treason based on what is explicitly laid out in the Constitution.
your personal interpretation of the constitution is irrelevant; the historical fact is that no confederates were charged with treason.
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Old 03-29-2014, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Planet Earth
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Just take the flag down already.
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Old 03-29-2014, 12:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by le roi View Post
your personal interpretation of the constitution is irrelevant; the historical fact is that no confederates were charged with treason.


Just because they weren't charged with treason doesn't mean they didn't commit treason. Not being charged doesn't mean the crime didn't occur. Throughout history you will find plenty of people and institutions that weren't charged with a crime/offense they committed. Using your logic there wasn't a single high level banker or financial institution that committed fraud and misconduct in the financial crisis of 2008 because they weren't charged.

Last edited by AddaVisser; 03-29-2014 at 01:26 PM..
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Old 03-29-2014, 03:17 PM
 
1,912 posts, read 2,011,409 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canes2006Champs View Post
Just take the flag down already.


You said it best.

It baffles me. 1865-2014. Think of ALL THE STUFF that has happened in that time frame, that America has overcome, battled through, etc, etc.

But some reason, this group of people are stuck on what happened from 1861-1864.

One would think that the best way to honor those who fought that war, for whatever reason, would just to fly the AMERICAN FLAG alone. Because for all the reasons and **** that involved that war, its OVER. Say it again for that segment of SC folks: ITS OVER.

Again: THE CIVIL WAR IS OVER.

And our country existed BEFORE that war, DURING that war, and AFTER that war. And we are here today, the greatest nation on Earth.

Isn't THAT flag of today enough to remember all those who fought in ALL our wars, and worked in our country and raised children and recovered from disasters and all that we do TOGETHER????? Afterall, our HERITAGE is from 1776-2014. Fly the flag the reps ALL of our heritage, in ALL our years of being great.


Guess not. At least as long as that stupid redneck flag is flying on state grounds.
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Old 03-29-2014, 03:39 PM
 
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A flag can't be a redneck. It is not alive. Redneck is a noun or adjective that pertains to people. Only you can give meaning to a flag.

The American flag is redneck, by your own logic, as slavery, segregation, racism, etc all happened under that flag.
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Old 03-29-2014, 03:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timetrav View Post
A flag can't be a redneck. It is not alive. Redneck is a noun or adjective that pertains to people. Only you can give meaning to a flag.

The American flag is redneck, by your own logic, as slavery, segregation, racism, etc all happened under that flag.
"Redneck Flag" just like "Nazi Flag" reps Nazis.

The Confederate hobbyists say that groups like the KKK took over that flag, and that they misrep it. So, that flag must rep things other than just the Confederacy or "heritage". Rednecks fly it to show racism and hatred. So, when THEY fly it, its the "Redneck Flag".

You're right. All that ugly Civil War stuff happened under the same American flag that WW2 and Vietnam happened under.

Which makes me wonder why some need a different flag to celebrate "heritage" that happened under the US flag????
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Old 03-29-2014, 03:44 PM
 
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By the nature of this debate, shouldn't some Revolutionary War memorials also fly the British flag, in honor of the loyalists of the colony that didn't want to break off from England???

No. Cant do that, because they were on the losing side. Go figure.
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