U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > South Carolina
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-03-2018, 10:51 AM
 
1,279 posts, read 546,586 times
Reputation: 2023

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100 View Post
It sounds like you’re the exception and not the norm. You’d have a better chance waiting for autonomous cars ...https://youtu.be/8K1mya0yRsU
I may be the exception who clamors for better transit, but based on gripes from relatives, I-85 isn't everyone's favorite highway. If even 5% of drivers switched to rail, that would fill up numerous passenger trains.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-03-2018, 11:02 AM
 
6,788 posts, read 10,293,728 times
Reputation: 1971
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100 View Post
SC is actually in better shape than most states for rail. Rail freight is huge here and seems to take priority. It’s by far the cheapest way to ship freight. Trucks on the road aren’t because the tracks are overloaded, but because a rail line doesn’t go directly to every warehouse and retail store in the state. They get shipped from rail yards or ports.
For its size SC actually has 3 Amtrak rails going through the state (one to each metro). Most states don’t have any or it only goes to the largest cities.
If an Amtrak route is consitantoy booked, there’s a simple free market fix for that, and that’s raise the price like an airline would do. When it’s too high and nobody’s riding it, lower the price to meet the market demand. The rails are shared with freight companies and it’s the most fuel efficient form of travel. The cars are all over 30 years old. There’s no reason Amtrak shouldn’t be able to make money without taxpayer support.

The reason public transit is so popular in heavily populated areas isn’t because people enjoy it, but because commute times and land prices in town are prohibitive. No SC city is quite there yet.


One of the most "reasonable" trains that traverses SC is the Amtrak Palmetto.. It runs through Dillon, Florence, Kingstree, Charleston, and Yemassee. Its a medium haul train that runs only from NYC to Savannah..It leaves NYC early in the 6am gets into Savannah 9pm and the return leaves at 9am and gets in NYC by midnight. The benefit of this service is not end to end but all the points in between. If you are going from Baltimore to Charleston or Philadelphia to Fayetteville.. This train runs at reasonable hours and would likely be comparable to driving (when leaving/traveling to) a major metro area during similar times of day. I have seen college kids riding this service that get on in places like Wilson NC and get off in Richmond VA. A trip of only a several hours that doesn't feel like an all day affair and certainly without the hassles of security lines or traffic jams..


I think you are right that the convenience of having a car at your destination is an issue especially in small towns.. But as you mentioned.. the rise of autonomous cars, rideshares like Uber and Lyft, and car sharing programs like ZipCar can reduce those concerns at the end of the trip in areas that don't have well established public transportation. Amtrak Ticket machines have replaced the need for a full ticket agent at many stations and like airline tickets.. they can be scanned on the train. Amtrak even has some cross fare arrangements that allow you to continue on from an Amtrak Station to smaller destinations via bus that is usually waiting at the station all on the same ticket that is reserved at the time of booking..


I didn't mean to get off on a tangent about Amtrak.. my main point is how travel in the Southeast can and hopefully will evolve to accommodate a variety of lifestyles and options.. especially as places like SC become more populated. We may not have large urban metros.. but connectivity and traffic between the various metros in North and South Carolina collectively should warrant some forward thinking, planning, and coordination across state lines and with transportation providers now so we are better able to address these issues in the future..

Last edited by Woodlands; 01-03-2018 at 11:13 AM..
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-03-2018, 11:32 AM
 
1,279 posts, read 546,586 times
Reputation: 2023
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodlands View Post
I didn't mean to get off on a tangent about Amtrak.. my main point is how travel in the Southeast can and hopefully will evolve to accommodate a variety of lifestyles and options.. especially as places like SC become more populated.
It already has in NC and VA (which recently added an Amtrak train originating in...Roanoke, of all places, and both states have Amtrak trains to and through numerous smaller towns).

SC, GA and AL have not, despite having a densely-populated I-85 corridor (at least from Atlanta northwards).

Last edited by PuppiesandKittens; 01-03-2018 at 11:42 AM..
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-03-2018, 01:12 PM
 
Location: Greenville SC 'Waterfall City'
10,110 posts, read 5,357,237 times
Reputation: 3970
Quote:
Originally Posted by PuppiesandKittens View Post

GSP doesn't have that many direct flights to places I go to, so I often drive to Charlotte. That's an hour and 45 minutes on the road (and one more car on the road, adding to the already-heavy traffic). That time is not productive. If there were a train with even a 2-hour trip time, it would take maybe 20 minutes coming and going from the station and waiting for the train, but the whole 2 hours would be productively used, usually for work. Is 2 hours spent driving the most productive use of my time? No. Working would be a much more productive and profitable use, but I can't because of the poor mass transit in SC.
If you don't live in Greenville, how can it be wasting your time?

Greenville has numerous direct flights and it is difficult to believe that a non-resident would regularly need to fly from Greenville to a destination that doesn't have direct flights from Greenville.

I cannot think of any destination that would be quicker to reach from Greenville by train than by car or plane.

It is weird that you keep bashing the mass transit in Greenville and SC while at the same time saying you don't think taxes should be raised. You have indicated that you think tax dollars should be used to fund commuter trains for middle class people so unless you are proposing spending cuts elsewhere, you are implying taxes should be raised.

Tax dollars used to fund buses in Greenville is based on helping poor people. Middle class people can use the bus but that's not why the buses are funded by tax dollars. Scientific research on diseases does help everybody because everybody is going to get sick at some point.

Those examples are in no way comparable to using tax dollars to fund trains for a small number of middle class people, most of whom own cars.

Last edited by ClemVegas; 01-03-2018 at 01:34 PM..
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-03-2018, 01:54 PM
 
1,279 posts, read 546,586 times
Reputation: 2023
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClemVegas View Post
If you don't live in Greenville, how can it be wasting your time?

Greenville has numerous direct flights and it is difficult to believe that a non-resident would regularly need to fly from Greenville to a destination that doesn't have direct flights from Greenville.

I cannot think of any destination that would be quicker to reach from Greenville by train than by car or plane.

It is weird that you keep bashing the mass transit in Greenville and SC while at the same time saying you don't think taxes should be raised. You have indicated that you think tax dollars should be used to fund commuter trains for middle class people so unless you are proposing spending cuts elsewhere, you are implying taxes should be raised.

Tax dollars used to fund buses in Greenville is based on helping poor people. Middle class people can use the bus but that's not why the buses are funded by tax dollars. Scientific research on diseases does help everybody because everybody is going to get sick at some point.

Those examples are in no way comparable to using tax dollars to fund trains for a small number of middle class people, most of whom own cars.
Chill...

* If someone travels from Point A to Point B, if the trip is made in an inefficient way (e.g., sitting in traffic), the person's time is not used efficiently. It doesn't matter if the person maintains a permanent residence in Point A or in Point B, or elsewhere.

* GSP has only limited flights to the Northeast: for NYC, United to Newark or Delta to LaGuardia, or American to Philadelphia. Charlotte has way, way, way more, so a lot of people fly out of Charlotte.

* Not sure why you insist that taxes be raised to improve mass transit. That assumes that every other tax dollar is properly used elsewhere. There are plenty of idiotic and wasteful government programs that can be cut in order to better fund infrastructure.

* Support for mass transit for poor people helps middle- and upper-income people because the bus helps "the hired help" to get to their jobs, working and helping middle- and upper-income people.

If middle-class people take mass transit, it helps everyone because, as per my post above, riders' time can be more productively used (resulting in more productivity and thus greater earnings for them and higher taxes paid to the government). It also can reduce traffic (even if the effect is modest), wear and tear on roads (even if the effect is modest) and CO2 emissions (even if the effect is modest).

You tell me: why do you not want alternatives to I-85?

Also, things like the CDC, scientific research and development in specific fields, and libraries DON'T help most people (if you look at the direct effects of each dollar spent on those things). You don't want to fund mass transit because you don't use it? Then I'm not funding libraries. The private sector provides things that public libraries do--just ask Google, Amazon and Barnes & Noble.

And the costs of me funding public education (which I don't and won't use) are far greater than the cost of anyone funding mass transit (in Greenville, property taxes per person are at least a few hundred dollars per year, a majority of which goes to fund public schools, but the total cost per person of all spending on mass transit in Greenville County is just $7 per person). So the taxes imposed on people who do not use something are far greater in the case of of public schools than for mass transit. I could very well argue that public education does little if any good and that it could and should be provided by the private sector if there is true demand for it. Sound silly? It's your argument about mass transit, applied to public education.

Last edited by PuppiesandKittens; 01-03-2018 at 02:44 PM..
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-03-2018, 03:50 PM
 
2,767 posts, read 2,555,119 times
Reputation: 2105
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClemVegas View Post
I cannot think of any destination that would be quicker to reach from Greenville by train than by car or plane.
I think the argument they are making is they can work while commuting by train but cannot work while driving a car so driving takes up more of their potential working time. That will likely be a moot point in another 5-10 years when autonomous cars will allow you to safely attend to other tasks while your car does the driving. I personally can't wait for the day that my car can handle the boring task of interstate driving for me.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-03-2018, 04:02 PM
 
1,279 posts, read 546,586 times
Reputation: 2023
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhitewaterVol View Post
I think the argument they are making is they can work while commuting by train but cannot work while driving a car so driving takes up more of their potential working time. That will likely be a moot point in another 5-10 years when autonomous cars will allow you to safely attend to other tasks while your car does the driving. I personally can't wait for the day that my car can handle the boring task of interstate driving for me.
Exactly.

Trains can have significantly faster door-to-door trip times than planes and cars in some places (like the Acela Express between NY and DC), but I don't foresee the Southeast ever having something like that.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-03-2018, 04:13 PM
 
Location: Greenville SC 'Waterfall City'
10,110 posts, read 5,357,237 times
Reputation: 3970
Quote:
Originally Posted by PuppiesandKittens View Post
Chill...

* If someone travels from Point A to Point B, if the trip is made in an inefficient way (e.g., sitting in traffic), the person's time is not used efficiently. It doesn't matter if the person maintains a permanent residence in Point A or in Point B, or elsewhere.

* GSP has only limited flights to the Northeast: for NYC, United to Newark or Delta to LaGuardia, or American to Philadelphia. Charlotte has way, way, way more, so a lot of people fly out of Charlotte.

* Not sure why you insist that taxes be raised to improve mass transit. That assumes that every other tax dollar is properly used elsewhere. There are plenty of idiotic and wasteful government programs that can be cut in order to better fund infrastructure.

* Support for mass transit for poor people helps middle- and upper-income people because the bus helps "the hired help" to get to their jobs, working and helping middle- and upper-income people.

If middle-class people take mass transit, it helps everyone because, as per my post above, riders' time can be more productively used (resulting in more productivity and thus greater earnings for them and higher taxes paid to the government). It also can reduce traffic (even if the effect is modest), wear and tear on roads (even if the effect is modest) and CO2 emissions (even if the effect is modest).

You tell me: why do you not want alternatives to I-85?

Also, things like the CDC, scientific research and development in specific fields, and libraries DON'T help most people (if you look at the direct effects of each dollar spent on those things). You don't want to fund mass transit because you don't use it? Then I'm not funding libraries. The private sector provides things that public libraries do--just ask Google, Amazon and Barnes & Noble.

And the costs of me funding public education (which I don't and won't use) are far greater than the cost of anyone funding mass transit (in Greenville, property taxes per person are at least a few hundred dollars per year, a majority of which goes to fund public schools, but the total cost per person of all spending on mass transit in Greenville County is just $7 per person). So the taxes imposed on people who do not use something are far greater in the case of of public schools than for mass transit. I could very well argue that public education does little if any good and that it could and should be provided by the private sector if there is true demand for it. Sound silly? It's your argument about mass transit, applied to public education.
I'm ok with not funding libraries.

I'm not against alternative transportation. I'm against paying for middle class people to ride a train simply because they prefer not to drive. If you are for trains, then you should be willing to pay the cost. You keep talking about how great trains are but you do not want to pay for it.

To me it is odd you always talking about wanting to save time but you have plenty of time to complain about mass transit, traffic, zoning, Goodwill stores, shopping centers, etc in a city that you don't live in. Nobody on this forum can do anything about these 'problems' as you see it. It seems like if you are solution oriented, you would try to contact people who can do something to create the changes you want. Complaining about something but taking no action isn't an efficient use of time, in my view.

You've complained about mass transit in Greenville and SC but then state that you don't think taxes need to be raised even though that seems like the only solution to the problem as you see it.

Charlotte has more direct flights because of cities like Greenville and Columbia connecting there.

Greenville has flights to cities where there is demand. You have to make a profit to stay in business.

Last edited by ClemVegas; 01-03-2018 at 04:25 PM..
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-03-2018, 04:25 PM
 
1,279 posts, read 546,586 times
Reputation: 2023
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClemVegas View Post
If you are for trains, then you should be willing to pay the cost. You keep talking about how great trains are but you do not want to pay for it.
When and where did I EVER state that I don't want to pay for alternative modes of transportation?

I have stated-in posts above- that I am fine with my tax dollars going for numerous modes of transportation, including rail (and road and air).

I also paid over $300 for a one-way Amtrak trip a few weeks ago; I looked into, and Amtrak made a profit on that. So I put my money where my mouth is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClemVegas View Post
To me it is odd you always talking about wanting to save time but you have plenty of time to complain about mass transit, traffic, zoning, Goodwill stores, shopping centers, etc in a city that you don't live in. Nobody on this forum can do anything about these 'problems' as you see it. It seems like if you are solution oriented, you would try to contact people who can do something to create the changes you want.
Again, I spend plenty of time in Greenville, even though it's not my principal residence. Am I prohibited from expressing viewpoints about any city where I don't maintain a principal residence but visit frequently? If so, why?

Also, where did I EVER state that I don't "contact people who can do something to create the changes [i] want"? Maybe I do? Maybe I've served in public office before? Maybe I have been heavily involved in politics? Maybe? Did you ask?

I'm not clear on why you give the anti-Clemson liberal bigot a free pass but are so focused on these things, and don't ask to confirm facts.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-03-2018, 04:28 PM
 
Location: Greenville SC 'Waterfall City'
10,110 posts, read 5,357,237 times
Reputation: 3970
I never said you can't express your viewpoints about Greenville.

I'm only curious why you spend more time talking about a city that you don't live in than the city that you currently live in. I think most of your posts on City Data have been about Greenville and it is usually to complain about something.

It doesn't sound like Greenville and SC are a good fit for you so it is interesting that you are motivated to keep talking about it.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:



Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > South Carolina
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2020, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top