Lakota Indians Withdraw Treaties Signed With U.S. 150 Years Ago (White: houses, purchase)

[awoods2]

Originally Posted by WeeMadArthur

First, I didn't realize that this was the South Dakota forum... I assumed it was Politics and Controversies. I apologize for butting in where I obviously don't know wtf I'm talking about.

IF these treaties are valid and IF the Lakota people support this action, why do you care if they become their own country? I hope they have a good plan because I don't think US taxpayers will be sympathetic if they fail.

I think most of you guys are just offended because they are renouncing their US citizenship.

Well there are a number of reasons I think it's a bad ideal. But here are two.

1) I really don't think a majority of Lakota people (or even a large percent) support this ideal. No I have no data to back that up, just personal feelings.
2) Read carefuly where this "new" country is, and do some historic reasearch. They are not talking about just the reservations, they are talking about "Indian Country". So lets talk about where I live in Nebraska. In a new country. How about Mt. Rushmore? Sorry it is now in a different country.

I as write this I realise, it's been what? 9 years ago Russell and his merry band started the Whiteclay riots. I guess it is time for him show back up and stir the crap and leave.

Oh and don't worry about butting in this really is something that would affect us all. But also be very careful, issues on the res often are nothing like what gets reported in the national media.

Adam

[ElkHunter]

Originally Posted by Jammie

Good question. And I never thought about the illegal alien thing either. Bet that won't work with Natives though.

As usual, just way too many things not thought out. I personally live in middle ground of a few of the reservations.

If they renounce their citizenship, they are no longer US citizens, hence they are giving up "Native". IMO.

Now if they claim the rez as their country, they'll be citizens of that country. So now, what does that do to Indians that are not on the Rez? Do they all move back so they can get the privilage of being citizens of that country?

Way too many questions unanswered. Really interested on what transpires.

[DannyBanany]

Seems like Russell Means is just talking out of his...

[Chris19]

Originally Posted by SCGranny

I think you're mistaken, WeeMadArthur. This discussion strikes me as a normal reaction by people who know real Indians, not the TV-alized and emotional, angst-driven folk created by the likes of Means.

I am married to a 1/2 Indian. His father left the Cherokee Reservation to join the Marines at 17. When they asked for his ethnicity, he wrote, "caucasian" and never looked back. Why? because he didn't want to be pigeonholed in a job description! He was a Supply Staff Sergeant in the Marine Corps for 25 years. He traveled all over the world, met people from all walks of life, and was as adamant as any Conservative Republican against handouts to ANY people, his own included. He renounced his roll number and married an Irish girl, got the house-with-a-picket-fence near the park he'd always wanted, and the respect due any man who works hard and supports his family. He would never take the Casino or tribal payments offered by his tribe, as many have who have never even been on a reservation. He was an honorable man who made his own way and believed in personal responsibility.

Juxtapose that against those who talk about injustice, yet let their own people on their familial reservations languish in rundown trailers, without education, without hope, without forming true leadership bonds that take their own people into the world and teach them to not only survive but to succeed. Any group - whether led by Jesse Jackson or Russell Means - that sits and waits for the values and rewards of life, and endlessly whines about what people "owe" them, without the struggle that functioning adults accept as a part of life, is a group that destines itself for failure.


Freedom depends on individual rights and personal responsibility. When it is "everyone else's fault", then no one takes responsibility, no one progresses, no one achieves. And that insults and ultimately destroys the race or tribe that accepts that dictum, by believing and enforcing that they are dependent on others. Joining a group that believes with innocently open mouths that they can live off of others without personal cost will be devastating to them.

I think this is a very interesting quote and the last two paragraphs are very true. I am proud of your spouse's hard work and initiative and wish that more Native Americans would follow in working hard and taking more pride in themselves, families, and in their cultures/society.

[blackhillsdreams]

I have some insight to this.

I personally know a semi famous DJ from Florida that grew up on a res (not Lakota). He was able to get grants to go to broadcasting school, and actually made a name for himself and did quite well. He doesn't mention his heritage unless you know him. In his early years, he was interviewing Means and Banks at his radio station on AIM issues and he was shocked to see them walk in wearing expensive suits, driving nice cars, and so on. They've done well for themSELVES... That is always a factor. As for Means, he doesn't live on the res. He may not live in Hollywood, but I'm sure wherever he lives, he has a nice place from all the movie money he's made (assuming he spent it wisely).

I also know some Lakota on the res, I became friends with them long enough to be taken for granted and taken advantage of... I won't go into it. I've been to the res and attended Sundance in Rosebud at Leonard Crow Dogs, I offered jobs to able bodied men. Only one person took me up on it and quit within 10 days when he realized he actually had to work... Are they all like that, Lord I hope not, but my experiences have not been remotely positive.

The land wasn't "theirs" in the first place, the Lakota ran other tribes out of the plains and took over. I'm certain they are not willing to give anything back to them (if indeed there are any surviving members left).

[DannyBanany]

More insight: If the Lakota claim that the land belongs to all people and it is impossible to make claims on it, then why are they trying to do it. I am part of the Rosebud Sioux Tribe, but I do not believe they are a conquered people anymore. They are an unmotivated people.

[sdgoldpanner]

I have been pondering, for years, the discrimination issues between the “whites & native americans, especially in Western South Dakota, and to this day, the issues remain unsolved. I will say right up front, that I probably have just as many native american friends as I do white friends. It is too bad that we as American Citizens have to describe people as either white, black, red, orange or any other word. Why can it not just be “people”? That’s what we all are! We are all human beings. Some of us are capable of great things, some are not. Whose fault is that? I can find fault between different types of people, we all can because it in inbred into us, and most do, but to label others with a describable word or words such as White, Chinese, Native American, Black or Red, not to mention the slang words that go along with those descriptions, is wrong! The “predjudous bones” in my body, become irritated when I read or hear the next steps that Russell Means or Dennis Banks desire to take. “Denounce” his citizenship! Cmon, there is a better way than that. I believe they call it education! Who is he really for, the people, or his self esteem? You see, I do have a problem with Mr. Means. I have had that problem since the early 70’s, and try as I may, I cannot rid my memories of those thoughts. But that is my problem! I will have to deal with that eventually. To explain those memories, let me say that yes, I was involved in the Pennington County Courthouse riot involving AIM and South Dakota, back in the 70’s. It was not a pretty situation! In reality, it was a damn scary situation. I was a badge carrying Officer on the Sioux Falls Police Department at the time. I was there when the court pews were torn free from the floor and tossed out the 3rd story windows. I was there when Russell Means ripped my name tag off of my uniform and advised to his cohorts, they had another family name to go after! I was there in Wounded Knee in 1973 when FBI agents Coler and Williams were killed. I was part of the Tactical Squad at the Custer County Court house riot in 1973. So now you see why those memories are burned into my mind. So now, Russell Means wants his own Nation. Does he have any idea as to how he will handle an energy power to his nation? What about his Nations defense, infrastructure, etc.etc.etc.? It seems to me that a whole list of unknowns lie ahead of him. Unknowns that have to be addressed before his nation will work. Will his residents have to apply for visas or have passports to come into our country? Obvious the Federal money and programs will cease to exist! That can only harm the residents!
Granted, it may save the US taxpayers millions of dollars, but the irreversible harm that will come to his people, is not worth it! My guess is that as soon as the going gets tough, he will again complain about the government, which seems to be his backward steps! If one would simply do the investigative work, one would find out that the Sioux were not native to SD. So then how did they come to own the land they want back? That has never been answered and remains a mystery to this day. Is Russell Means going to request Federal dollars for highway funds in his nation. It will be a waste of time on his part. How much thought has he given all this?
I guess I will get off of my soapbox now and accept the accusations that are probably being typed right now for this forum. Let me have it!

[DannyBanany]

Originally Posted by sdgoldpanner

I have been pondering, for years, the discrimination issues between the “whites & native americans, especially in Western South Dakota, and to this day, the issues remain unsolved. I will say right up front, that I probably have just as many native american friends as I do white friends. It is too bad that we as American Citizens have to describe people as either white, black, red, orange or any other word. Why can it not just be “people”? That’s what we all are! We are all human beings. Some of us are capable of great things, some are not. Whose fault is that? I can find fault between different types of people, we all can because it in inbred into us, and most do, but to label others with a describable word or words such as White, Chinese, Native American, Black or Red, not to mention the slang words that go along with those descriptions, is wrong! The “predjudous bones” in my body, become irritated when I read or hear the next steps that Russell Means or Dennis Banks desire to take. “Denounce” his citizenship! Cmon, there is a better way than that. I believe they call it education! Who is he really for, the people, or his self esteem? You see, I do have a problem with Mr. Means. I have had that problem since the early 70’s, and try as I may, I cannot rid my memories of those thoughts. But that is my problem! I will have to deal with that eventually. To explain those memories, let me say that yes, I was involved in the Pennington County Courthouse riot involving AIM and South Dakota, back in the 70’s. It was not a pretty situation! In reality, it was a damn scary situation. I was a badge carrying Officer on the Sioux Falls Police Department at the time. I was there when the court pews were torn free from the floor and tossed out the 3rd story windows. I was there when Russell Means ripped my name tag off of my uniform and advised to his cohorts, they had another family name to go after! I was there in Wounded Knee in 1973 when FBI agents Coler and Williams were killed. I was part of the Tactical Squad at the Custer County Court house riot in 1973. So now you see why those memories are burned into my mind. So now, Russell Means wants his own Nation. Does he have any idea as to how he will handle an energy power to his nation? What about his Nations defense, infrastructure, etc.etc.etc.? It seems to me that a whole list of unknowns lie ahead of him. Unknowns that have to be addressed before his nation will work. Will his residents have to apply for visas or have passports to come into our country? Obvious the Federal money and programs will cease to exist! That can only harm the residents!
Granted, it may save the US taxpayers millions of dollars, but the irreversible harm that will come to his people, is not worth it! My guess is that as soon as the going gets tough, he will again complain about the government, which seems to be his backward steps! If one would simply do the investigative work, one would find out that the Sioux were not native to SD. So then how did they come to own the land they want back? That has never been answered and remains a mystery to this day. Is Russell Means going to request Federal dollars for highway funds in his nation. It will be a waste of time on his part. How much thought has he given all this?
I guess I will get off of my soapbox now and accept the accusations that are probably being typed right now for this forum. Let me have it!

Well put. Excellent post!

[Jammie]

Originally Posted by DannyBanany

Well put. Excellent post!

What Danny said. Goldpanner, that was a very interesting post.

[sdgoldpanner]

I stand corrected by my own mistake. I mentioned the Pennington Court House. It was the Minnehaha Court House in Sioux Falls. Sioux Falls was my home for 23 years. Sorry guys.