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I understand the analogy and what the relativity explanation of gravity is saying. But it does not explain why mass causes a distortion of space-time in the first place. In order for mass to exert an influence on space-time there has to be a force produced by that mass whether it be gravitons or something else. The distortion of space-time is caused by MASS and is what we experience as gravity.
Well, I'm not a scientist but that's my view. I side with the graviton explanation for gravity.
I understand the analogy and what the relativity explanation of gravity is saying. But it does not explain why mass causes a distortion of space-time in the first place. In order for mass to exert an influence on space-time there has to be a force produced by that mass whether it be gravitons or something else. The distortion of space-time is caused by gravity which is carried by gravitons and so is not itself what we experience as gravity.
Well, I'm not a scientist but that's my view.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I understand the analogy and what the relativity explanation of gravity is saying. But it does not explain why mass causes a distortion of space-time in the first place. In order for mass to exert an influence on space-time there has to be a force produced by that mass whether it be gravitons or something else. The distortion of space-time is caused by MASS and is what we experience as gravity.
Well, I'm not a scientist but that's my view. I side with the graviton explanation for gravity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beninfl
Fixed for you.
If mass causes gravity, and if gravity is in turn the cause of the distortion of space-time, then how can the distortion of space-time be that which causes it?
I thought you believed in the existence of gravitons but that we simply cannot yet detect them.
If mass causes gravity, and if gravity is in turn the cause of the distortion of space-time, then how can the distortion of space-time be that which causes it?
I thought you believed in the existence of gravitons but that we simply cannot yet detect them.
Gravity does not cause the distortion of spacetime. Mass does. Gravity is the effect, mass is the cause.
Gravitons have not been discovered yet, we only theorize that they should exist. I dont believe anything, either. I follow the facts. :-)
No, I'm not confusing mass with gravity. And that question is exactly my point. What I'm trying to say is that to my understanding, mass wouldn't have an effect on space-time unless there was something inherent about (or generated by) the mass (gravitons?) which caused it to distort space-time. What is it about mass which causes it to distort space-time if not gravity itself? In other words, the hypothesis in question is saying that what we call gravity is the result of (or is) the distortion of space-time rather than gravity being the cause of the distortion of space-time. And that is why I'm saying that to me the hypothesis in question amounts to saying that gravity causes gravity which of course doesn't make sense. I still may not be clear about what I'm trying to say, but I don't know how else to state it.
I guess the issue is, is gravity a distortion of space-time or is gravity a force (generated by gravitons) which causes a distortion in space-time?
Mass causes a distortion of spacetime. Since we experience things in space + time instead of spacetime, we perceive the distortion of spacetime as a force, which we call gravity.
If you're familiar with the centrifugal force that is a good analogy. Observers in a rotating frame of reference feel a force pushing them away from the center of rotation, much like gravity. This force arises not from any fundamental source, but simply from the rotating frame of reference. Similarly, what we call gravity is simply consequence of the space-distorting effects of matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
I understand the analogy and what the relativity explanation of gravity is saying. But it does not explain why mass causes a distortion of space-time in the first place. In order for mass to exert an influence on space-time there has to be a force produced by that mass whether it be gravitons or something else. The distortion of space-time is caused by gravity which is carried by gravitons and so is not itself what we experience as gravity.
Well, I'm not a scientist but that's my view.
You've got it wrong. The distortion of spacetime is caused by mass. The low energy approximation of this distortion produces a fictitious force that we call gravity.
And it turns out that the force pretty much has to be carried by gravitons. Whomever said scientists have abandoned the idea of the graviton is wrong.
And the question you're asking about why mass distorts spacetime is a very deep one. It's along the same lines as "why does charge produce electrical forces". The answer to that question can partially be answered by considering the electromagnetic force to be the locally gauge invariant theory of an electron field. Similarly, some theorists posit that gravity is a similar (but more complicated) locally conserved gauge theory. Even then, though, you can still ask the question as to why should these gauge transformations should be used. Eventually there will be a question that can't be answered by science, because science doesn't look for why, only for what the universe is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
If mass causes gravity, and if gravity is in turn the cause of the distortion of space-time, then how can the distortion of space-time be that which causes it?
I thought you believed in the existence of gravitons but that we simply cannot yet detect them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beninfl
Gravity does not cause the distortion of spacetime. Mass does. Gravity is the effect, mass is the cause.
Gravitons have not been discovered yet, we only theorize that they should exist. I dont believe anything, either. I follow the facts. :-)
For the sixth or seventh time in this thread mass causes distortions in spacetime. These distortions are not caused by gravity.
Did the M Theory (string theories) solve the "singularity" (what caused the bang)?
And speaking of gravity, a force so great that keeps everything together but yet, how can it be aslo so weak that even a small magnet can break that force? Is it because of the 11th dimension?
Did the M Theory (string theories) solve the "singularity" (what caused the bang)?
And speaking of gravity, a force so great that keeps everything together but yet, how can it be aslo so weak that even a small magnet can break that force? Is it because of the 11th dimension?
M-Theory is not a correct theory, but parts of it probably are. We cant really test it with our current technology and experiments. In a few decades, maybe, but not right now.
Gravity isnt really weak. Weak would be a term you use relative to another force. Sure, gravity can be weaker than a magnet and a metal, but that's just the way it is, it isnt as a result of another dimension, it's a fundamental property of the field.
Explain your take on people of science who believe in the existence of God. Isn't it contradictory for people of facts and science to believe in the supernatural? Not trying to be a wise-guy, but many of my friends are engineers, physicists etc. and they go to church regularly and believe in the existence of God.
M-Theory is not a correct theory, but parts of it probably are. We cant really test it with our current technology and experiments. In a few decades, maybe, but not right now.
Gravity isnt really weak. Weak would be a term you use relative to another force. Sure, gravity can be weaker than a magnet and a metal, but that's just the way it is, it isnt as a result of another dimension, it's a fundamental property of the field.
Gravity is really weak. It's weaker than the electromagnetic force by over 30 orders of magnitude. The extreme scale difference between electroweak and gravitation force scales is given a name: the hierarchy problem. One possible resolution of the hierarchy problem is indeed that gravity spreads evenly through other dimensions and those other dimensions essentially weaken the force of gravity in three dimensions. There is no experimental evidence for this solution, however.
If M theory is not a correct theory, why is it that it's the only theory that had answered what caused the 'bang'?
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