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Old 11-21-2017, 06:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djmilf View Post
Regarding water spouts on Mars, I really doubt it. Earth atmospheric pressure is about 15 psi and Martian atmospheric pressure is about 0.01 psi. Water doesn't exist in liquid form at such a low temperature and at low temperatures, both of which are the case on the surface of Mars. Instead, water ice goes straight to water vapor.
You might be right to doubt "water spouts on Mars". I doubt it too. I've offered suggestions regarding possible liquid water, but also possible sand flows. A recent study suggests the RSL on Mars might not be caused by water, but by sand. RSL due to sand flows haven't been confirmed though. I would think that sand flows in action would also create tell-tale dust clouds, but we're not seeing anything like that. One problem with the sand flow scenario is the apparent darkening and lightening of the RSL. I just don't think the images posted are monster eruptions of water bursting out. Unless otherwise proven, I'd be inclined to think the images show sand and dust in channels in the crater wall.

The water hypothesis hasn't completely been discounted though, in part because of the presence of hydrated salts which have water molecules bound in the crystals. The detection of salts seem somewhat typical with RSL spotted in Martian craters. But there are other events that don't require the presence of liquid water temporarily flowing down the walls. I'd still like to see a much closer inspection of an RSL, but that's not likely to happen anytime soon. The RSL phenomena isn't clearly understood. Exactly what's going on with the RSL is still uncertain. The red planet still has plenty of surprises ahead yet to be discovered.

Flows of 'water' on Mars may actually be sand, study says - CNN

https://phys.org/news/2017-11-recurr...eaks-sand.html




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tXTAtvp0kM
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Old 11-22-2017, 01:06 AM
 
Location: China
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I can just hear them now..."We need something else to explain the water spouts that have been found in the photographs from Mars. What can we say it is? I know, sand flows. Yes, thats it we can say it is sand flows."

It is rather like the wind on Mars. There have been so many conflicting stories about the wind and what it is able to do. Either it is strong...or its weak. Either of these facts can provide a credible reason why certain features or phenomena exist. Folks who like to explain these things can point to one of these two options knowing they are backed up by planetry scientists. NASA always like to keep us guessing with them always being certain about just what the wind is doing. Unfortunately they cannot agree amongst themselves.

Rover "Cleaning events" is a case in point.

Oh, and please dont start to tell us about how the Martian atmosphere is like this and the gravity is like that which means the wind does not have any strength, but it has just enough to lift dust-sized particles into the air and blow around grains of sand to form huge dunes, but not enough to move 5mm blueberries into piles behind rocks etc etc. Then there are the mighty storms which rage for months on end and the dust storms we have a little video of travelling across the dirt making tracks.
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Old 11-28-2017, 08:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
I just want to ask you guys what this is or what might have caused such a hole please? It looks as if it is a large hole in the side of a rock, although somehow I do not think we are going to get a closer look at it - even if it does look strange.

Top left of this image.
https://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl-raw-im...29E01_DXXX.jpg

OK, IF it is just a normal rock, I can accept that, but NOT that this rock has a what-appears-to-be manafactered opening in it. So maybe the question should be, who or what created that opening, because the Mars wind and rain sure did not and it does not look like an image artifact.
It is not a hole, manufactured or otherwise. It is a spall surface. Notice that the rock has a large crack right through its middle. The surface you refer to is a spall surface left over after a portion of the rock cracked and fell away. Nothing special about this, at all.
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Old 12-03-2017, 05:22 AM
 
Location: China
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I assume you mean this?
Quote:
Spalling is a result of water entering brick, concrete or natural stone and forcing the surface to peel, pop out or flake off.
or maybe this from wikipedia
Quote:
Spalling is a common mechanism of rock weathering, and occurs at the surface of a rock when there are large shear stresses under the surface. This form of mechanical weathering can be caused by freezing and thawing, unloading, thermal expansion and contraction, or salt deposition.
Could you explain how this type of 'weathering' could and does exist on Mars and what martian processes are responsible for creating it please? We do not appear to have seen this phenomena anywhere else in rover images so perhaps this is a first?

I understood weathering was a very vary slow process on Mars due to the very light wind and not much water. I would have expected to see numerous other weathering effects if this was a common occurrance on Mars.
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Old 12-03-2017, 11:29 AM
 
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Think about it, even if some of these things were really evidence of a past civilization, does anyone actually believe they would allow the public to learn about or see this? Such a thing would cause a mass panic like nothing we have ever seen. Our entire history would suddenly be called into question.
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Old 12-03-2017, 04:26 PM
 
Location: China
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Quote:
Such a thing would cause a mass panic like nothing we have ever seen. Our entire history would suddenly be called into question.
You do not need the images to change a lot for there to be some possibility that what is being shown is just a rock.

However, there is already a fairly high percentage of the population who beliieve we are not alone, so the number of people who think there is intelligent life out there is increasing all the time. There are some pretty good examples of mass-sightings of UFOs, etc over the years which have added fuel to the belief we are not alone.

The statistics say there are many people who have seen 'something' they cannot explain. That does not mean it is ET but it does mean they either have to question their reality or else they go about their business as usual and ignore it - if they cannot rationally find an explanation for it, they put it down to something strange and leave it at that.

Not many people are willing to spend time looking for or considering such a possibility of evidence in the photos. Either they just do not believe it is possible or else they do not want to believe due to their world view. Others doggedly want things to stay the same (which they never do) because it provides a safe way to live their life. As I underestand it, Science is all about having questions about stuff and then trying to find answers why amd how. As soon as the door is closed to new thought and new hypotheses then discovery stops too. Scientists are finding out stuff all the time which others thought were unlikely or impossible within the framework of known laws.
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Old 12-04-2017, 03:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
I assume you mean this?


or maybe this from wikipedia


Could you explain how this type of 'weathering' could and does exist on Mars and what martian processes are responsible for creating it please? We do not appear to have seen this phenomena anywhere else in rover images so perhaps this is a first?

I understood weathering was a very vary slow process on Mars due to the very light wind and not much water. I would have expected to see numerous other weathering effects if this was a common occurrance on Mars.
Believe it or not, there is frost on Mars. Most of it is related to freezing and thawing CO2, but also a small amount of water vapor exists in Mars' atmosphere. The fact remains that multiple cracks formed on that rock; and the surface in question is a relic of such a crack.
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Old 12-04-2017, 03:41 AM
 
3,579 posts, read 2,590,325 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
You do not need the images to change a lot for there to be some possibility that what is being shown is just a rock.

However, there is already a fairly high percentage of the population who beliieve we are not alone, so the number of people who think there is intelligent life out there is increasing all the time. There are some pretty good examples of mass-sightings of UFOs, etc over the years which have added fuel to the belief we are not alone.

The statistics say there are many people who have seen 'something' they cannot explain. That does not mean it is ET but it does mean they either have to question their reality or else they go about their business as usual and ignore it - if they cannot rationally find an explanation for it, they put it down to something strange and leave it at that.

Not many people are willing to spend time looking for or considering such a possibility of evidence in the photos. Either they just do not believe it is possible or else they do not want to believe due to their world view. Others doggedly want things to stay the same (which they never do) because it provides a safe way to live their life. As I underestand it, Science is all about having questions about stuff and then trying to find answers why amd how. As soon as the door is closed to new thought and new hypotheses then discovery stops too. Scientists are finding out stuff all the time which others thought were unlikely or impossible within the framework of known laws.
UFOs are just that, unidentified flying objects. Most are neither unidentified, nor flying. Ever wonder why the vast bulk of astronomers, both amateur and professional never report UFOs? Because we know what we are looking at.
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Old 12-04-2017, 05:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
I get the feeling these rovers are more like a scientists joy-ride (OK, at 4 miles per hour or whatever). The opportunity to examine these passed-by features will never happen again as time will have gone on and the scientific focus will have shifted. It is highly unlikely that there will be a rover in this area again and so it seems a wasted opportunity for scientific investigations to be carried out. Maybe someone should question the use of the tax dollars and whether the best value is being extracted out of what money the scientists are given.

I understand the need for mission goals and objectives, however there have been several times where features and unknown objects have been ignored (some would say, conveniently) because the rover drivers are doggedly sticking to their objectives rather than making best use of the opportunity which is presented.
It's sound science to fill out the basics first, and then go chasing after what looks "interesting". Geologists right here on Earth map out their research area in a structured manner. It's hard to say if a feature is even to be considered interesting at all until you have an idea of the environment. I have no doubt that people are very carefully allotting the rovers' time.
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Old 12-04-2017, 07:26 PM
 
4,886 posts, read 7,594,697 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orogenicman View Post
Believe it or not, there is frost on Mars. Most of it is related to freezing and thawing CO2, but also a small amount of water vapor exists in Mars' atmosphere. The fact remains that multiple cracks formed on that rock; and the surface in question is a relic of such a crack.
Agreed. While the air temperature can reach 70 degrees F (20 degrees C) near the equator on Mars, that's for a realtively short period time during the Martian summer, and only a few hours during the day. At night, the temps can drop down to about -100 degrees F (-73 degrees C). Overall average temperature on the planet is about -80 degrees F (60 degrees C). The highest air temperature Curiosity measured was 43 degrees F (6 degrees C).
https://www.space.com/16907-what-is-...e-of-mars.html

The warmest temperatures might be enough to allow soil temperatures to briefly thaw frozen water ice, but not long enough or deep enough to thaw considerable amounts of any underground water ice. Still, one has to wonder about the RSL which indicate the presence of salts and the possibility of temporary liquid water flows. The RSL spotted show temporary lines of darkened soil, that vanish as the season changes.

That view may somewhat change. Landslides can potentially reach speeds going down steep slopes up to about 450 mph (720 km/h). For a comparison, fast pyroclastic flows on Earth can travel at about 150 mph (725 km/h). These figures are based on landslides in equatorial areas like the Valles Marineris. It was noted that ice was found at the base of such landslides which may be a reason for such flows of rock and dirt.

If that proves to be true, then it increases the likelihood that RSL may be due to similar landslides caused by ice thawing or expanding near the upper surfaces of craters by loosening rock and soil causing collapses.
https://www.space.com/38939-mars-meg...ed-by-ice.html

https://link.springer.com/article/10.../i2017-11727-x

Even though there are traces of water vapor in the thin Martian atmosphere, that moisture can still settle into tiny cracks of rocks and expand when frozen causing the cracks to expand and break, very much like the crack shown in the image in the first post.
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