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Old 03-16-2018, 05:07 PM
 
5,975 posts, read 2,609,766 times
Reputation: 18002

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Quote:
Originally Posted by katharsis View Post
I am NOT arguing with this, but I am just wondering why, even now, much simpler projects take several years to go from an idea to a workable design, and then it takes even more years and sometimes many failures before the design actually comes to fruition

It also just amazes me that no U.S. astronauts met their deaths in space until about 25 years after the first manned Mercury launch. In comparison, look at how many test pilots lost their lives during the early days of rocket testing. Yes, of course, much is accomplished and learned through simulations now, but again, I just think about what has been accomplished in the past 60 years as far as getting humans into space (and other accomplishments, too) and . . . well, words fail me.

That's because of the NASA planning process which, at the time, was almost legendary. It rewarded clean, elegant thinking without having to put any idea through one filter after another. The organization also didn't have the massive encrustation of bureaucracy that it would later accrue.

The same is really true of World War II. The United States military went from a seriously compromised navy and tiny army on December 8, 1941, to a colossus that successfully waged two entirely different wars in two completely different parts of the world against adversaries who had highly capable militaries.

It's what happens when you are willing to dedicate massive resources to a project while eliminating all the flaming hoops that normally would stand in the way.

Last edited by MinivanDriver; 03-16-2018 at 05:18 PM..

 
Old 03-16-2018, 05:39 PM
 
Location: Southern Colorado
3,682 posts, read 1,898,745 times
Reputation: 4737
Quote:
Originally Posted by MinivanDriver View Post
That's because of the NASA planning process which, at the time, was almost legendary. It rewarded clean, elegant thinking without having to put any idea through one filter after another. The organization also didn't have the massive encrustation of bureaucracy that it would later accrue.

The same is really true of World War II. The United States military went from a seriously compromised navy and tiny army on December 8, 1941, to a colossus that successfully waged two entirely different wars in two completely different parts of the world against adversaries who had highly capable militaries.

It's what happens when you are willing to dedicate massive resources to a project while eliminating all the flaming hoops that normally would stand in the way.
Governments have long excelled at the Art of Killing. Our huge WWII successes should be no surprise.

What really set England and the USA apart is how much killing we did vs. how many of us got killed. Both countries made a lot of killing tools rather than throw unprepared soldiers in front of the mechanized Wermacht death machine.

The USSR? They had a new government that had not mastered the Art of Killing. As a result, 28 million Russians got killed. However the USSR had the satisfaction of largely killing the Wermacht death machine. The USA killed the Imperial Nipponese death machine while trying to convince future generations that we killed the Wermacht death machine.

We landed on the moon six times. The fact that there is plenty of material to stoke alternative viewpoints is pretty interesting. Wouldn't that be something if we landed five times and faked it once?

Moon rocks? This is mostly fanciful talk. The non-gaseous planets and moons are thought to be pretty well composed of basalt. Which Earth also has a great deal of. So.....what about the asteroid belt????? I wanted to be an asteroid miner so badly. Six years with no people? Where do I sign?

Last edited by ColoGuy; 03-16-2018 at 05:49 PM..
 
Old 03-16-2018, 09:28 PM
 
Location: PRC
3,250 posts, read 3,365,783 times
Reputation: 2950
No-one can say that a Moon landing is similar to designing and making the A-bomb.There is a HUGE difference between making a nuclear bomb and organising a trip to the Moon by humans. A bomb just has to explode, when you have the mechanism, then you just make it bigger.

A Moon visit has so many different aspects to it of which any could go wrong and kill your passengers.
 
Old 03-16-2018, 10:26 PM
 
Location: Southwest
1,597 posts, read 1,106,032 times
Reputation: 1131
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColoGuy View Post
We landed on the moon six times. The fact that there is plenty of material to stoke alternative viewpoints is pretty interesting. Wouldn't that be something if we landed five times and faked it once?
I suggested this possibility earlier in this thread. Post #148. I also wondered if there was a gentleman's agreement between the USA and the Soviet Union where they don't call b.s. on our moon landing, and we don't call b.s. on their possible failures to get a man in space before Yuri Gagarin. Some people believe cosmonauts got into space but didn't make it back alive. One of them may still be out there, deceased of course.
 
Old 03-16-2018, 11:18 PM
 
5,975 posts, read 2,609,766 times
Reputation: 18002
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColoGuy View Post
Governments have long excelled at the Art of Killing. Our huge WWII successes should be no surprise.

What really set England and the USA apart is how much killing we did vs. how many of us got killed. Both countries made a lot of killing tools rather than throw unprepared soldiers in front of the mechanized Wermacht death machine.

The USSR? They had a new government that had not mastered the Art of Killing. As a result, 28 million Russians got killed. However the USSR had the satisfaction of largely killing the Wermacht death machine. The USA killed the Imperial Nipponese death machine while trying to convince future generations that we killed the Wermacht death machine.

We landed on the moon six times. The fact that there is plenty of material to stoke alternative viewpoints is pretty interesting. Wouldn't that be something if we landed five times and faked it once?

Moon rocks? This is mostly fanciful talk. The non-gaseous planets and moons are thought to be pretty well composed of basalt. Which Earth also has a great deal of. So.....what about the asteroid belt????? I wanted to be an asteroid miner so badly. Six years with no people? Where do I sign?
Looks as if you don't know squat about history.

Back to the loopy conspiracy theories. The people who claim the moon landings were faked don't know much about lighting, film or cinematography. The technology wasn't even remotely there in 1969 or 1972. Heck, it wasn't there in 1999. Take a look at movies such as Star Wars or The Empire Strikes Back. What looked like cutting-edge CGI back then looks like the equivalent of Revell models dangled from fishing line today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_loUDS4c3Cs

And here's another:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syVP6zDZN7I

Last edited by MinivanDriver; 03-16-2018 at 11:42 PM..
 
Old 03-16-2018, 11:47 PM
 
Location: Heart of Dixie
12,446 posts, read 11,243,767 times
Reputation: 28225
Quote:
Originally Posted by curiousgeorge5 View Post
...I also wondered if there was a gentleman's agreement between the USA and the Soviet Union where they don't call b.s. on our moon landing, and we don't call b.s. on their possible failures to get a man in space before Yuri Gagarin...
Now, in which reality would that even seem plausible???
 
Old 03-16-2018, 11:53 PM
 
5,975 posts, read 2,609,766 times
Reputation: 18002
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirt Grinder View Post
Has humanity really devolved to this level???
No. That's the problem with conspiracy theorists. In order to support their disbelief, they have to actually believe in nonsense infinitely more fantastical than the things they wish to rebut.

They have to believe in video technologies that were non-existent for decades to come; they have to ignore the fundamentals of lighting, photography, and film production (Even now, it's really, really hard to mimic moonwalking). They have to believe that thousands and thousands of NASA employees, the press, and everyone else even remotely involved in a fraud so vast could stay quiet. They have to believe that the legions of outsiders from the film production community needed to produce something like this--from grips and gaffers to wardrobe, set builders, craft service, lighting guys, camera operators, directors, production coordinators, film transfer technicians, and video editors--could sit on this for decade upon decade. And they must believe paranoid theories that the Soviet Union, despite waging a proxy war with us in just about every hotspot in the world during this period, would be willing to keep mum on this.

So they slip into this weird fantasy world, just lapping up every syllable from guys who don't apparently understand the simple mechanics of production lighting. Yet they want to believe themselves as skeptics.

Last edited by MinivanDriver; 03-17-2018 at 12:14 AM..
 
Old 03-17-2018, 01:33 PM
 
28,638 posts, read 40,613,958 times
Reputation: 37331
Empty lives require something to fill the space and for many conspiracy theories are that filler. Desperation can cause strange things to happen to a persons mind.
 
Old 03-17-2018, 02:10 PM
 
7,168 posts, read 3,920,595 times
Reputation: 6765
Quote:
Originally Posted by katharsis View Post
I am NOT arguing with this, but I am just wondering why, even now, much simpler projects take several years to go from an idea to a workable design, and then it takes even more years and sometimes many failures before the design actually comes to fruition

It also just amazes me that no U.S. astronauts met their deaths in space until about 25 years after the first manned Mercury launch. In comparison, look at how many test pilots lost their lives during the early days of rocket testing. Yes, of course, much is accomplished and learned through simulations now, but again, I just think about what has been accomplished in the past 60 years as far as getting humans into space (and other accomplishments, too) and . . . well, words fail me.
Compare and contrast to the Soviet deaths in space. Part of that was bleeding edge, part was them not investing and accounting for redundancy.
 
Old 03-17-2018, 04:16 PM
 
Location: Southwest
1,597 posts, read 1,106,032 times
Reputation: 1131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirt Grinder View Post
Now, in which reality would that even seem plausible???
Both countries wanting to keep their people enthusiastic about the space race. Also, there is some evidence showing Yuri Gagarin wasn't the first in space.


This is just semi-wild speculation on my part.


I just noticed post #199 about cosmonaut deaths in space and insufficient redundancy.

Last edited by curiousgeorge5; 03-17-2018 at 04:19 PM.. Reason: Addition
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