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Old 12-29-2017, 04:11 AM
 
Location: PRC
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I am sure there is a very simple explanation to all of this, I just cannot get my head around it at the moment..

I was reading today how the space shuttles had the design maximum of 7 crew members, 4 on the flight deck and 3 in the lower deck. From what I understand, the ISS is designed for a maximum of 7 crew too but there is only emergency evac space for 6 so this is the number limit they stick to up there.

Often there were actually the maximum of 7 crew who flew up to the ISS in the space shuttle missions. Challenger and Columbia had 7 crew members each who died when the shuttles failed.

The ISS can accomodate 6, and the shuttles would arrive with an extra 7, where do all those people stay?

Although there is a small galley on the ISS, there are no facilities to feed 13 people, no washing facilities, recreational or even just sitting-around space. These personnel cannot all be working all the time.

Additionally, the shuttle missions often lasted between 5 and 17 days in space. Thats a lot of food, extra weight, etc where weight is very costly and needs to be maximised effectively for satellites, cargo, provisions for ISS, etc.

So, please help me understand what all these 7 shuttle crew were doing for these missions and how were they accomodated in space?

Wikipedia ISS
Wikipedia, Shuttle
Space.com Shuttle design etc
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Old 12-29-2017, 09:10 AM
 
20,141 posts, read 15,454,973 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
I am sure there is a very simple explanation to all of this, I just cannot get my head around it at the moment..

I was reading today how the space shuttles had the design maximum of 7 crew members, 4 on the flight deck and 3 in the lower deck. From what I understand, the ISS is designed for a maximum of 7 crew too but there is only emergency evac space for 6 so this is the number limit they stick to up there.

Often there were actually the maximum of 7 crew who flew up to the ISS in the space shuttle missions. Challenger and Columbia had 7 crew members each who died when the shuttles failed.

The ISS can accomodate 6, and the shuttles would arrive with an extra 7, where do all those people stay?

Although there is a small galley on the ISS, there are no facilities to feed 13 people, no washing facilities, recreational or even just sitting-around space. These personnel cannot all be working all the time.

Additionally, the shuttle missions often lasted between 5 and 17 days in space. Thats a lot of food, extra weight, etc where weight is very costly and needs to be maximised effectively for satellites, cargo, provisions for ISS, etc.

So, please help me understand what all these 7 shuttle crew were doing for these missions and how were they accomodated in space?

Wikipedia ISS
Wikipedia, Shuttle
Space.com Shuttle design etc
The ISS actually has quite a bit of room. The following is from space.com, November 21, 2013:
14 Rooms

The space station today has more livable room than a six-bedroom house spread across 14 pressurized modules or components.

There are three laboratories the U.S. Destiny module, European Columbus module and Japan's Kibo lab and three connecting nodes (Unity, Harmony and Tranquility). On the Russian side, there are two docking compartments (Pirs and Rassvet), the Zarya FBG and Zvezda service module. [15 Years of Space Station Science and Construction (Video)]

Quest serves as the U.S. operating segment's airlock and the Leonardo permanent multipurpose module (PMM) acts as a closet for storage space. The Kibo module also has its own supply closet (the "JLP") and lastly is the Cupola, a seven-windowed observatory.

The space station's internal volume is about the same as a Boeing 747 jumbo jetliner.

https://www.space.com/23686-internat...-15-facts.html
And:
There can be as many as 10 people living on the station at a single time, or as few as two to three.

https://www.engadget.com/2014/11/04/...ion-explainer/
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Old 12-29-2017, 03:10 PM
 
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Keep in mind that the space shuttles were completely contained and self-sufficient human habitats in themselves, so the ISS didn't necessarily have to provide accommodations for 13 crew all by itself.

Think of when two boats raft up. One might hold six crew and the other might hold four crew, but it doesn't mean that the one of the boat must necessarily provide berths for all ten people at once.
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Old 12-30-2017, 06:29 AM
 
Location: PRC
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Thanks for the explanations. I am still amazed that it is necessary for 7 people to go up (almost) each time the shuttle took off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djmilf
Keep in mind that the space shuttles were completely contained and self-sufficient human habitats in themselves...
According to this space.com article, there is not much more than a few seats, so I dont know where they stow the 7 crew when they fly. I would have thought that resources of water, air, and space would make it really difficult to stay in those conditions for very long. Rather like camping in a campervan. Maybe they pack them in boxes and put them in the shuttle equipment bay.

I seem to remember the shuttle used to stay in space for 5-17 days each mission, I see on this page the various spacecraft visiting the ISS these days stay docked for up to 6 months (~ one month USA, 6 months Russia, "Currently docked/berthed" section 1/2 way down page). USA Cargo flights do not carry passengers currently.

---------------
The ISS has all these rooms, as Mike555 pointed out, but those spaces seem to be largely work room such as laboratories, equipment, experiments, computers, hatches, doors, etc. and not for sleeping in or relaxing. Extra people are going to get in the way of normal space station operations and it looks as if there is/was not space in the shuttle.
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Old 12-30-2017, 09:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
Thanks for the explanations. I am still amazed that it is necessary for 7 people to go up (almost) each time the shuttle took off.

According to this space.com article, there is not much more than a few seats, so I dont know where they stow the 7 crew when they fly. I would have thought that resources of water, air, and space would make it really difficult to stay in those conditions for very long. Rather like camping in a campervan. Maybe they pack them in boxes and put them in the shuttle equipment bay.
With regard to the space shuttle flights, up to 8 people could be seated on Atlantis, STS-71. 4 in the Flight Deck and 4 in the Mid-deck. Here's an interesting link that shows a diagram of the crew seating arrangements. The description shows that 7 people were launched, and 8 people were aboard for landing. The shuttles were just that - as a shuttle to transport people and cargo to and from space stations. Once docked with the space station, the shuttle could basically be considered as a part of the space stations, albeit temporary.

Space shuttles were also used for other missions, such as using the robotic arm in the cargo bay to retrieve or launch satellites, additions for the space stations, etc., as well as make repairs. One interesting repair job was done to the Hubble Space Telescope to replace a faulty part.
Spaceflight mission report: STS-71

https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/h...top_intro.html
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Old 12-30-2017, 06:47 PM
 
Location: PRC
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Quote:
The shuttles were just that - as a shuttle to transport people and cargo to and from space stations...
haha - You talk as if there are many space stations! :-) Yes, I realise that, but why is it necessary to transport so many people up and back each time when a large part of the missions were to transport supplies to the ISS and launch satellites. Of course, sometimes they also needed to have specialists for different things and to swap out scientists at the ISS.

Doesn't anyone else think this is strange behaviour to ferry so many people up and back all the time?
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Old 12-30-2017, 09:01 PM
 
4,947 posts, read 7,696,631 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
haha - You talk as if there are many space stations! :-) Yes, I realise that, but why is it necessary to transport so many people up and back each time when a large part of the missions were to transport supplies to the ISS and launch satellites. Of course, sometimes they also needed to have specialists for different things and to swap out scientists at the ISS.

Doesn't anyone else think this is strange behaviour to ferry so many people up and back all the time?
What you said was "...there is not much more than a few seats, so I dont know where they stow the 7 crew when they fly." I provided you with an explanation as to where they "stow" 7 people when they fly.

Yes, I did say space stations (plural). Why is that so funny? The ISS isn't the only space station to orbit the Earth. The Russians had the Mir space station in orbit. The US space shuttle program included a total of 9 missions to Mir space station. Atlantis docked 7 times with Mir, and shuttles Discovery and Endeavour docked 1 time each. This was between 1995 and 1997. Mir was de-orbited with most of the fragments falling into the South Pacific Ocean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuttl...%93Mir_Program
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuttl...#Space_Shuttle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deorbit_of_Mir

https://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/imag...ature_189.html

I don't think it was especially strange to shuttle people back and forth. Part of it was to relieve or rotate some of those on the space station. You answered your own question which is also true: "Of course, sometimes they also needed to have specialists for different things and to swap out scientists at the ISS." Many of the people on the space station were there on missions for a limited amount of time.
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Old 01-01-2018, 01:40 PM
 
29,527 posts, read 14,962,159 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
Doesn't anyone else think this is strange behaviour to ferry so many people up and back all the time?
Not at all. Shuttle launches were really seriously expensive, so why fly with empty seats?
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Old 01-01-2018, 08:02 PM
 
Location: PRC
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OK, thanks for all the comments
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