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Old 03-12-2019, 10:43 AM
 
Location: Amelia Island
3,012 posts, read 4,058,101 times
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I have to say I could not believe there wasn't life out there somewhere...…………...but I can't really also grasp or get my head around the fact that we may never know how big the universe is and that it could go on into infinity.


As poor as an analogy this is but to compare to, I always think about Horton hears a Who from Dr. Zuess. We really do not know how big we are or how small we are. We could be in a pocket of space that could fit on the head of someone's needle or we could be missing entire civilizations that are on particles flying by us at the speed of light.


A better question is, will civilization on earth as we know it live long enough to learn how big our universe is?
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Old 03-12-2019, 06:54 PM
 
Location: PRC
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It is amazing to me how many scientifically-minded people can be so closed-minded as well as fixed in their thinking. Perhaps the essence of science is to dream up hypotheses and design experiments to test, them but there are a number of folks who cannot get past the known and discovered 'laws' which man - in his wisdom has decreed are almost set in stone. Even though new laws are discovered all the time, the old laws make a set of rigid rules which mean certain new ideas are impossible and so are not proposed and tested.

Some people claim the universe is so vast it would take ET many years to travel to our location. Some claim we are alone because they do not agree with the scientific thinking of previous excellent scientists. It seems all according to beliefs and speculation which is not scientific at all.

We have no idea what scientific breakthroughs are available to the military in their labs. We have no idea what they know of the universe and its inhabitants either. The public scientists know little of what the military scientists cannot tell us due to secrecy rules.

Looking at the reported facts - whether we believe them or not - it would appear there are already ETs here in some form or another, so for the scientist-type, it would be better to go prove or disprove the reported facts with scientific methods rather than engage in academic venting of hot air.
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Old 03-13-2019, 02:17 PM
 
Location: Seattle
2,352 posts, read 501,616 times
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My perspective with science is that its main purpose is to counteract the human tendency toward irrational mental biases. Given the current lack of evidence for extraterrestrial life though, I don't think it's irrational to think there may not be any. If nobody can prove whether something exists or not, it isn't science, it's philosophy.
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Old 03-13-2019, 06:17 PM
 
Location: South-Western USA , desert
517 posts, read 393,865 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seenee View Post
The Universe is really expansive, and huge. And while I know we can't definitely say there isn't life on other planets, as I am sure there is in the scope of say microorganisms or single celled organisms, I personally think it would be kind of sad if in this vast amazing Universe, Earth itself just happened to be extremely lucky in being able to have the kind of life we have.

Isaiah 45:8-10 shares God's reason for creating the earth:


"For this is what Jehovah says,The Creator of the heavens, the true God,
The One who formed the earth, its Maker who firmly established it,
Who did not create it simply for nothing, but formed it to be inhabited:
'I am Jehovah, and there is no one else'."


I believe it stands to reason that one could exchange the word 'universe' for earth', & see the reason that God created -& is continually expanding- the universe. I do not believe, however, that the time has come yet, to spread living creatures living on other planets throughout the universe. He is too wise for that! First must come the complete settling of all the issues between God & his creations thus far. Only then will it be in the best interests of all concerned to expand life onto other planets. There will be a universal precedent set, based upon the failure of mankind to rule himself, which will go into place, and it will keep peace throughout the universe for all eternity. . . .



However, there already are life forms in the universe, but not living on planets:


"Are There Intelligent Creatures in Outer Space?"
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Old 03-13-2019, 06:19 PM
 
Location: South-Western USA , desert
517 posts, read 393,865 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seenee View Post
The Universe is really expansive, and huge. And while I know we can't definitely say there isn't life on other planets, as I am sure there is in the scope of say microorganisms or single celled organisms, I personally think it would be kind of sad if in this vast amazing Universe, Earth itself just happened to be extremely lucky in being able to have the kind of life we have.

Isaiah 45:8-10 shares God's reason for creating the earth:


"For this is what Jehovah says,The Creator of the heavens, the true God,
The One who formed the earth, its Maker who firmly established it,
Who did not create it simply for nothing, but formed it to be inhabited:
'I am Jehovah, and there is no one else'."


I believe it stands to reason that one could exchange the word 'universe' for earth', & see the reason that God created -& is continually expanding- the universe. I do not believe, however, that the time has come yet, to spread living creatures living on other planets throughout the universe. He is too wise for that! First must come the complete settling of all the issues between God & his creations thus far. Only then will it be in the best interests of all concerned to expand life onto other planets. There will be a universal precedent set, based upon the failure of mankind to rule himself, which will go into place, and it will keep peace throughout the universe for all eternity. . . .



However, there already are other life forms in the universe, just not living on planets of the universe:


"Are There Intelligent Creatures in Outer Space?"
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Old 03-13-2019, 09:17 PM
 
Location: Earth
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may be its a good thing. Don't want aliens invading
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Old 03-14-2019, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Seattle
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Aliens wouldn't need to invade us to completely disrupt our civilization. Even benign aliens could mess us up royally, just by supplying the right technologies.
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Old 03-14-2019, 02:10 PM
 
4,263 posts, read 8,017,770 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harry chickpea View Post
I agree that it is irrelevant anyway, barring the discovery of some previously unknown dimension at the core of "spooky action at a distance."

The idea that because there are many stars there must be many with planets holding intelligent life is a flawed use of probability.

"No amount of fancy probabilistic analysis can justify treating guesswork and wishful thinking as having any sort of scientific weight."
https://medium.com/starts-with-a-ban...e-8f31a559f741


The old Drake equation is:

N = R ∗ ⋅ f p ⋅ n e ⋅ f l ⋅ f i ⋅ f c ⋅ L

where:

N = the number of civilizations in our galaxy with which communication might be possible and
R∗ = the average rate of star formation in our galaxy
fp = the fraction of those stars that have planets
ne = the average number of planets that can potentially support life per star that has planets
fl = the fraction of planets that could support life that actually develop life at some point
fi = the fraction of planets with life that actually go on to develop intelligent life (civilizations)
fc = the fraction of civilizations that develop a technology that releases detectable signs of their existence into space
L = the length of time for which such civilizations release detectable signals into space

The problem with this is that it is far too neat and simplistic and doesn't take into account factors that were unknown at the time. Even a cursory examination shows that "fl" assumes "at some point" and then uses that as a number - as if the planet ALWAYS could carry life. "fl" has other problems as well. Vast swaths of planets or moons get eliminated for various failings, some of which we likely don't even yet know. Instead of a single "fl", that part of the equation needs to be broken down further.

So, in doing that, we run into multiple exclusions of planets that make the fraction almost impossibly rare if we consider life based on carbon and water as the only life capable of advanced evolution.

Must be in Goldilocks zone AND
Must have a magnetic pole as shielding AND
Must have a suitable mix of elements on it (leaving out most early arrivals) AND
Must not be bombarded with radiation (leaving out just about all stars and planets near a galactic core) AND
Must have sufficient atmosphere with suitable mix of gases AND
Must not have an excess of toxic or mutagenic compounds AND
I could go on with dozens of other requirements.

These are not "choose any three" but every single box must be checked.

As for advanced life, Earth has had multiple mass extinction events, millions of tries at various plants and animals, created intelligent life in animals that can't be effective with tools, such as dolphins and whales, and even only one of many species of humans made the jump to social intelligence and cooperative civilization resulting in advanced technology.

Stating that because there are massive numbers of stars there must be numerous civilizations of intelligent beings is like saying that because there are massive numbers of grains of sand on a beach that one of them must have created a pizza.

Once we have a greater understanding of the extreme rarity of the combination of events that created our civilization we might have a more realistic understanding of whether any others exist. Remember that evolution favors brute strength, toxicity, size, fecundity, and meanness. Intelligence has never been a big marker of evolutionary success before.

If I had to guess, I would place the odds (at best) as about one civilization capable of getting into space per medium sized galaxy.
Thanks for posting this. This forum, after all, is a science one. Your post is the closest thing to the spirit of the forum.
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Old 03-14-2019, 02:39 PM
 
33,767 posts, read 17,305,096 times
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Robert Hanson came up with the Great Filter idea - that somewhere along the path between abiogenesis and galactic colonization there is a probability gate with an extremely low success rate. (From a selfish point of view, it would be interesting to know if we have it in front of us or behind us, of course.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Filter

It's a fascinating idea, though.

And of course, our capacity for grasping these concepts is probably rather limited. As Terry Pratchett put it, "I think perhaps the most important problem is that we are trying to understand the fundamental workings of the universe via a language devised for telling one another where the best fruit is.”"
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Old 03-14-2019, 06:09 PM
 
2,959 posts, read 1,126,249 times
Reputation: 1997
The great thing about this theory is that it’s only falsifiable.

If we go with the premise “Earth is the only place to hold life”, then there are only two possible outcomes.

A) We find evidence to the contrary, therefore proving once and for all that life forms exist elsewhere, nullifying the theory.

B) We fail to find any conclusive evidence, thus the search goes on. We will never have access or be able to explore the entire universe, therefore the possibility will always remain even millions of years from now if we’re still around.
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