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Old 12-03-2017, 02:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
The vaccine is less effective for one of the strains but could provide better than 10% effectiveness for the other two or three.
The 10% is based upon what is already known about the current flu vaccine, the current season and the strains that are circulating.

Quote:
However, even a 10% decrease results in a large decrease in the absolute number of cases nationwide, especially if this is a year with a large number of cases, which is also being predicted.
At 10% effectiveness? Not really when one's chances of getting it already range from 5% to 20% but please feel free to get it for yourself, your kids and your family if you feel that it would help.

Quote:
In addition, vaccinated people who do get the flu tend to get less sick. I know an infectious disease expert who says that he is only interested in keeping flu victims out of his ICU, and the vaccine helps do that.
How could they possibly prove that those who get the vaccine will have less severe cases? It's impossible to prove. I suspect you may be relying on what is known as the healthy user effect.

My daughter had the flu a few years ago and her case was not severe yet she didn't have the vaccine. I'm sure if she had the vaccine it would be considered proof that it had made her illness less severe? But she didn't so I guess it's not noteworthy.

Quote:
Why not vaccinate and use whatever alt med nostrums you want to?
I don't know if I'd take any medication that had a 10% effective rate. I sure wouldn't be trying to push it on others. Drugs, vaccines, etc. are not risk free and do come with side effects. Some severe, some mild, some long term, some even unknown.

Do you take any supplements during flu season? Why or why not?

Quote:
What complications from flu vaccine are you afraid of?
I'm not afraid. I don't see the flu vaccine as necessary nor do I see it compatible with overall health, which is the long term goal. And to try to argue that it's so important in a year where it is expected to be 10% effective is over the top. No one is trying to convince you not to take it. Yet if someone decides it's not for them, you have to argue with them about it. Why?

You've stated in other threads that you have never had the flu in your entire life, even in years before the vaccine was available. Maybe that is why you seem so afraid of it? I've had it. It's not fun at all, but it's also not something I'm going to live in fear of.

Last edited by MissTerri; 12-03-2017 at 02:47 PM..
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Old 12-03-2017, 02:30 PM
 
Location: So Ca
15,758 posts, read 14,994,409 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
This year (2017-2018 flu season) the vaccine is expected to be 10% effective. It is not well matched this year.
I wonder why t's so much lower than it was last year (at least according to this chart).

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/me...ferdinands.pdf
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Old 12-03-2017, 02:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CA4Now View Post
I wonder why t's so much lower than it was last year (at least according to this chart).

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/me...ferdinands.pdf
It changes every year and depends very much on whether the vaccine is a good match for the circulating strains. This year it's not looking promising.
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Old 12-03-2017, 03:02 PM
 
Location: Southern California
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I'll comment on fear of the flu vaccines. I have no fear, but I prefer to do my own preventions vs the govt/pharma shots. The less I'm involved in the "industry" the better I feel.
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Old 12-03-2017, 03:43 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
23,391 posts, read 28,234,455 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
The 10% is based upon what is already known about the current flu vaccine, the current season and the strains that are circulating.
The 10% is based on the experience of the Southern hemisphere. The US experience will not be known until the season is over here.

Quote:
At 10% effectiveness? Not really when one's chances of getting it already range from 5% to 20% but please feel free to get it for yourself, your kids and your family if you feel that it would help.
When you apply the figures to a us population of about 325 million even 10% of 5% of that number is a lot of people, and 10% of 20% is even more.

Quote:
How could they possibly prove that those who get the vaccine will have less severe cases? It's impossible to prove. I suspect you may be relying on what is known as the healthy user effect.
By studying it. It's not impossible to prove.

https://www.asm.org/index.php/microb...f-flu-symptoms

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6307a2.htm

"Only six (21%) of 28 decedents whose vaccination status was known had documentation of receipt of 201314 seasonal influenza vaccine ≥2 weeks before symptom onset."

Quote:
My daughter had the flu a few years ago and her case was not severe yet she didn't have the vaccine. I'm sure if she had the vaccine it would be considered proof that it had made her illness less severe? But she didn't so I guess it's not noteworthy.
No conclusion is ever based on a series of one patient, which is why anecdotes like yours are not scientific evidence.

Quote:
I don't know if I'd take any medication that had a 10% effective rate. I sure wouldn't be trying to push it on others. Drugs, vaccines, etc. are not risk free and do come with side effects. Some severe, some mild, some long term, some even unknown.
For the third time in this thread, what complications are you concerned about from flu vaccine?

Supplements come with side effects, too, many of which are never reported. If they are, it is to poison control.

Quote:
Do you take any supplements during flu season? Why or why not?
No, because I have not seen any convincing evidence that they are effective.

Quote:
I'm not afraid. I don't see the flu vaccine as necessary nor do I see it compatible with overall health, which is the long term goal. And to try to argue that it's so important in a year where it is expected to be 10% effective is over the top. No one is trying to convince you not to take it. Yet if someone decides it's not for them, you have to argue with them about it. Why?
You still have not said anything except that you do not want to take it. What science based evidence do you have that the flu vaccine is harmful? Why not take the vaccine, as imperfect as it is, and use whatever alt med you like as well? Insisting that a vaccine is worthless unless it is 100% effective is an example of the Nirvana fallacy.

Quote:
You've stated in other threads that you have never had the flu in your entire life, even in years before the vaccine was available. Maybe that is why you seem so afraid of it? I've had it. It's not fun at all, but it's also not something I'm going to live in fear of.
This thread is about special needs children, not me. Never having had the flu is no guarantee I will never catch it. By virtue of my age alone I am in a high risk category for severe complications of flu. Flu can be fatal. It's not a trivial condition.
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Old 12-03-2017, 04:01 PM
 
9,591 posts, read 5,795,805 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
The 10% is based on the experience of the Southern hemisphere. The US experience will not be known until the season is over here.
Right, and looking at what happened in the Southern Hemisphere tells a lot about what we will experience in the US. That's what scientists do every year as it's been well established that looking at the Southern Hemisphere's flu season helps predict the US flu season. We're already seeing the same strains here as were seen in Australia and they were the predominant strains there and are the predominant strains here.

Quote:
When you apply the figures to a us population of about 325 million even 10% of 5% of that number is a lot of people, and 10% of 20% is even more.
You can't apply it to all 325 million people because only 5% to 10% of those people will get the flu in any given year. Of those who get the flu vaccine (around 50% of people) their chances of getting the flu may be reduced 10%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Do you have a link to the actual study? The info you shared said that the findings of this small study were presented at a conference but it doesn't say anything about where it was published, whether it was peer reviewed, replicated, etc. It also says that they only saw a difference in severity of symptoms with one flu strain and no difference with others. They said that the study was conducted on otherwise healthy individuals and that "it is not known whether these findings would be consistent among individuals who are known to be at high-risk for complications due to influenza infection (e.g. pregnant women, elderly persons, and persons with underlying medical conditions)." Please provide a link to the study. Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
For the third time in this thread, what complications are you concerned about from flu vaccine?
Look at the side effects listed in the vaccine insert, look at VAERS, look at payouts from the vaccine court.

Quote:
Supplements come with side effects, too, many of which are never reported. If they are, it is to poison control.
Of course supplements can come with side effects. Anything you put into your body can cause side effects. It's always important to educate oneself on what drugs, vaccines or supplements they are going to take before taking them. Many drug and vaccine side effects are also never reported. In fact only a tiny amount of all vaccine reactions are reported to VAERS, most go undocumented.

Good luck this flu season, Suzy. I'm certainly not going to spend it arguing with you about the flu vaccine. I'm sure you got your flu vaccine a long time ago and I'm sure that no one in my family will be getting one. Nothing anyone says will change either of our minds. Thankful for choice.

Last edited by MissTerri; 12-03-2017 at 04:28 PM..
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Old 12-03-2017, 05:03 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
23,391 posts, read 28,234,455 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri View Post
Right, and looking at what happened in the Southern Hemisphere tells a lot about what we will experience in the US. That's what scientists do every year as it's been well established that looking at the Southern Hemisphere's flu season helps predict the US flu season. We're already seeing the same strains here as were seen in Australia and they were the predominant strains there and are the predominant strains here.

You can't apply it to all 325 million people because only 5% to 10% of those people will get the flu in any given year. Of those who get the flu vaccine (around 50% of people) their chances of getting the flu may be reduced 10%.

Do you have a link to the actual study? The info you shared said that the findings of this small study were presented at a conference but it doesn't say anything about where it was published, whether it was peer reviewed, replicated, etc. It also says that they only saw a difference in severity of symptoms with one flu strain and no difference with others. They said that the study was conducted on otherwise healthy individuals and that "it is not known whether these findings would be consistent among individuals who are known to be at high-risk for complications due to influenza infection (e.g. pregnant women, elderly persons, and persons with underlying medical conditions)." Please provide a link to the study. Thanks.

Look at the side effects listed in the vaccine insert, look at VAERS, look at payouts from the vaccine court.

Of course supplements can come with side effects. Anything you put into your body can cause side effects. It's always important to educate oneself on what drugs, vaccines or supplements they are going to take before taking them. Many drug and vaccine side effects are also never reported. In fact only a tiny amount of all vaccine reactions are reported to VAERS, most go undocumented.

Good luck this flu season, Suzy. I'm certainly not going to spend it arguing with you about the flu vaccine. I'm sure you got your flu vaccine a long time ago and I'm sure that no one in my family will be getting one. Nothing anyone says will change either of our minds. Thankful for choice.
Fifty percent of 325 million people is 162.5 million people. If 10% of 5% of them do not get flu, that is 81,250 people who do not get the flu. If 10% of 20% of them do not get the flu, that is 325,000 who do not get the flu. Some of those thousands of people would have died. In addition, those numbers would change if more people took the vaccine. Fewer would get sick and there would be fewer sick people to spread it to others. By coming here and telling parents the flu vaccine is unnecessary you are not helping the situation.

The study you wanted:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4684491/

Among the references for that one is this one:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24676207

"During the 2010-2011 and 2011-2012 US influenza seasons, influenza vaccination was associated with a three-quarters reduction in the risk of life-threatening influenza illness in children."

Package inserts will list any condition reported during a drug study without regard as to whether the drug caused the condition or not.

VAERS reports also do not prove causality. Anyone can report anything about any vaccine.

Payouts from the vaccine court happen for about one dose in a million of all vaccines administered.

You still have not answered the question: what specific harm from flu vaccine concerns you?

You are free not to vaccinate your family. However, you have not provided any valid scientific reason for others not to vaccinate their kids, particularly those with special needs.

If all flu did was have you stuck on the couch with a box of Kleenex for a few days there would be no vaccine for it. Unfortunately, it can put some in the ICU on ventilators. Some of those do not survive.
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Old 12-03-2017, 05:40 PM
 
Location: Southern California
23,630 posts, read 8,227,438 times
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Good grief, some just don't quit trying to make a sale. For me I haven't had a flu since 1957 and why start now to get a shot and worry about getting the flu.

Hope all you folks escape the flu, vaccine or not.

Last edited by jaminhealth; 12-03-2017 at 06:12 PM..
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Old 12-03-2017, 06:19 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
23,391 posts, read 28,234,455 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaminhealth View Post
Good grief, some just don't quit trying to make a sale. For me I haven't had a flu since 1957 and why start now to get a shot and worry about getting the flu.

Hope all you folks escape the flu.
You are the one who reopened a very old thread in order to discourage parents from vaccinating their kids against flu. That means you are the one trying to make a sale. You are selling RFK, Jr.'s nonsense.
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Old 12-03-2017, 08:39 PM
 
Location: Southern California
23,630 posts, read 8,227,438 times
Reputation: 15437
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
You are the one who reopened a very old thread in order to discourage parents from vaccinating their kids against flu. That means you are the one trying to make a sale. You are selling RFK, Jr.'s nonsense.
It may be an old thread but there are NEW people coming here all the time, like myself. There are two sides at least to everything suzy.
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