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or way better than they ended up being, if not for injury or something else happening to derail their career?
MLB- Ken Griffey Jr. Already a hall of famer but I think if he had the durability of say Ripken he'd be in the conversation of best ever.
NHL- Mario Lemieux Put up crazy numbers while missing a good chunk of his prime due to injuries and hodgkins. Stats should have been closer to Gretzky.
Cam Neely Scored a ton of goals when able to play, but chronic injuries kept him off the ice for extended periods of time.
Eric Lindros Was a beast and probably the best of his generation, but concussions severely limited playing time and cut career short. NFL/MLB- Bo Jackson Got injured before I got to see him play but seemed like he had all the talent to be a superstar in both sports.
NBA- Cant think of many here but Grant Hill was pretty amazing in his Pistons days, then spent basically his entire prime hurt. Could have been one of the best ever.
Bo Jackson was an All-Star in MLB and the NFL. ESPN named him the greatest athlete of all time. Yeah, I wish he had played longer, but I'm pretty sure that he already reached that pinnacle.
I am going to make an argument for Roger Staubach. I know your thinking, huh? Staubach is a HOFer one of the best ever but not usually in the conversation of greatest of all time.. and one reason he didn't enter then NFL until he was 27... After his senior year at Navy, he had a 4 year commitment with them so he was not eligible to play until 1969. After his college days and before his rookie season, the Cowboys had lost 2 NFL championships to the Packers. After joining the club the Cowboys lost in the playoffs and Super Bowl V as Staubach watched from the bench.
Its not much of a stretch to say that if Staubach had entered the NFL after his college days in '65 he would have secured the starting QB job no later than 1968 or '69 after Meredith hard retired and perhaps sooner.. The Cowboys might have won another Super Bowl or 2 which have given Staubach 4 rings in 6 trips to the Super Bowl and likely elevated him to the GOAT or at least a strong argument for such...
or way better than they ended up being, if not for injury or something else happening to derail their career?
MLB- Ken Griffey Jr. Already a hall of famer but I think if he had the durability of say Ripken he'd be in the conversation of best ever.
NHL- Mario Lemieux Put up crazy numbers while missing a good chunk of his prime due to injuries and hodgkins. Stats should have been closer to Gretzky.
Cam Neely Scored a ton of goals when able to play, but chronic injuries kept him off the ice for extended periods of time.
Eric Lindros Was a beast and probably the best of his generation, but concussions severely limited playing time and cut career short.
NFL/MLB- Bo Jackson Got injured before I got to see him play but seemed like he had all the talent to be a superstar in both sports.
NBA- Cant think of many here but Grant Hill was pretty amazing in his Pistons days, then spent basically his entire prime hurt. Could have been one of the best ever.
1. Griffey played during the roid era, which probably stole awards from him he may have otherwise received. So, I think that had more of an impact that his health.
2. Bo Jackson, agreed.
3. Bill Walton, IMO more so than even Grant Hill. Walton played 468 games totaling around 13k minutes and over 1/2 those minutes he played in his first 4 years in the league before getting hurt. Despite that he was still in the top 50 greatest ceremony.
Grant hill has played >1k games and around 35k minutes.
Not the same thing but Arvidas Sabonis had he played his whole career in the NBA would be top 10 or so IMO.
Tony Conigliaro. Youngest home run champ in MLB when he did it. Great start in baseball and career ended when he got beaned. Died at the age of 45
His was first name that came to mind. Youngest ever to 100 HR. Certain HoF trajectory during his short time.
Dwight Gooden... sigh.
I'm not sold on Len Bias. Lots of highly-regarded rookies don't have superstar careers. Bias never had a chance to get his started - would've needed to see at least one year in NBA to have judged his ability to adapt to the size/speed of the NBA game.
I am going to make an argument for Roger Staubach. I know your thinking, huh? Staubach is a HOFer one of the best ever but not usually in the conversation of greatest of all time.. and one reason he didn't enter then NFL until he was 27... After his senior year at Navy, he had a 4 year commitment with them so he was not eligible to play until 1969. After his college days and before his rookie season, the Cowboys had lost 2 NFL championships to the Packers. After joining the club the Cowboys lost in the playoffs and Super Bowl V as Staubach watched from the bench.
Its not much of a stretch to say that if Staubach had entered the NFL after his college days in '65 he would have secured the starting QB job no later than 1968 or '69 after Meredith hard retired and perhaps sooner.. The Cowboys might have won another Super Bowl or 2 which have given Staubach 4 rings in 6 trips to the Super Bowl and likely elevated him to the GOAT or at least a strong argument for such...
Agreed.
There are more polls than you can shake a stick at regarding who the best qb of all time would be; be it Montana, Unitas, Elway, Peyton, Brady, Marino, etc., etc.
After SB-V head coach Tom Landry was still flip flopping as to whether Craig Morton or Roger would be the starter. And long time NFL fans were certainly scratching their heads when Landry played both quarterbacks in week 7's game against the Chicago Bears in the 1971 season. Yep, Staubach and Morton took turns shuffling plays in for the whole game. It was the only time in all my years of watching pro football that I had ever seen it. Needless to say that experiment was short lived.
If the Cowboys on a Super Bowl level (and to an extent Oakland on an AFC level) hadn't run into one of the dominant teams ever (Pittsburgh Steelers 1974 to 1979) Staubuch would be certainly in the top 10, possibly top 5. The other quarterbacks included with the above would be Terry Bradshaw, "Slingin" Sammy Baugh, Otto Graham, Bart Starr, and Troy Aikman, among others.
Last edited by DOUBLE H; 10-28-2013 at 03:10 PM..
Reason: spelling, addition
Under the heading "or something else happening to derail their career" we might consider the race barrier in professional sports which prevented players such as Josh Gibson and Satchel Paige from showcasing their skills at the highest levels of competition. Gibson was too old to perform any longer when the barrier was finally removed, Paige was 42 years old when at last allowed into MLB. (and still pitched very well.)
We might also look to baseball position players whose prime years passed between 1963 and 1968 when conditions were altered dramatically on behalf of pitchers when the strike zone was shrunk in a hysterical reaction to the Maris record. Carl Yastrzemski was especially unfortunate in that those years represented him going from age 24 through 29, exactly those years when he could have been expected to post the best numbers of his career.
We might also look to baseball position players whose prime years passed between 1963 and 1968 when conditions were altered dramatically on behalf of pitchers when the strike zone was shrunk in a hysterical reaction to the Maris record. Carl Yastrzemski was especially unfortunate in that those years represented him going from age 24 through 29, exactly those years when he could have been expected to post the best numbers of his career.
Grandstander makes some good points here. And the last year he mentions (1968) have some good stats regarding this.
Every time I think of 1968, a kazillion thoughts roll through my head. Narrowing it down to just baseball, well in MLB history they will always refer to 1968 as "The year of the pitcher." Take 2 examples:
Denny McClain. The last pitcher to win 30 games (won 31)
Bob Gibson. His record of 22-9 sounds like a fine year to people who aren't that familiar to that year until you get to the details. His ERA was 1.12. And that year he pitched 13 shutouts. Unreal! I'll never forget game one of the 1968 World Series with Gibson and McClain going against each other. That's the game where Gibson set the record for strikeouts in a series game with 17, breaking Sandy Koufax's record of 15. It was an awesome performance.
And getting to Yaz, he won the batting title that year. Yes, as Grandstander said lots of changes were made. Yaztrzemski's batting average? .301.
And getting to Yaz, he won the batting title that year. Yes, as Grandstander said lots of changes were made. Yaztrzemski's batting average? .301.
This is where WAR, which incorporates the relativity of league strengths each season, comes in handy. Yaz's raw numbers for 1968 were hardly eye popping. He batted .301 with 23 home runs, a slashline of .301/.426/.495. Despite this it was good for a WAR score of 10.5, tied for the 30th highest single season total ever posted by a position player.
The MVP award went to McClain because of the novelty of his 30 victories, but Yaz was first in WAR that season by a lot. Brooks Robinson was second at 8.5, McClain's season, because it was such a pitcher oriented year, was worth just 7.73 WAR, 4th best in the AL that year. Yaz finished 9th in the MVP voting.
They got it right in the NL, Gibson's year was worth an astonishing 11.89 WAR, his nearest competitor was Willie McCovey at 7.0 WAR.
We're talking about the best ever, right? I don't think too many of those listed in this thread could have been the best ever - but better than they are acknowledged.
Marcel Dionne - just played with the garbage LA Kings for too long AND played in the Gretzky era AND played in LA (not a hockey mecca)
Willie Mays - maybe he really is the best ever. He could do it all, speed, power, fielding
Oscar Robertson - Could do it all (except as a small man play in the paint)
Roberto Clemente
Bobby Orr
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No question
