Can't get any history without getting preached to... (Joseph, Meadow: homes, living in)

[TCAS007]

Originally Posted by Chango

This thread was specifically about places around St George; Brigham Young's St George home, the Jacob Hamblin home, the Mountain Meadows Massacre site (not staffed BTW) and Cove Fort.

If you want 2 more, add the Beehive House and all the chuch stuff at Nauvoo.

The reason I was asking is I thought those were church places. So I thought it is normal to have church people at a historic church place.

As for the state Capitol I would think it would be weird if there was a Missionary or the new museum in Salt Lake.

So I am not sure what to think about it. I came to Utah many years on a vacation as a non-member and never had any problems. I guess I would not have moved to Utah if I hated it or thought there might be complications.

[Chango]

Originally Posted by Chango

This thread was specifically about places around St George; Brigham Young's St George home, the Jacob Hamblin home, the Mountain Meadows Massacre site (not staffed BTW) and Cove Fort.

If you want 2 more, add the Beehive House and all the chuch stuff at Nauvoo.

Yea, I would expect it... say at Temple Square in the "what do we believe" displays at the visitor's center, but Cove Fort?! Come on, that place was built to fight Indians and house stagecoach passengers! The same with historic people like Brigham Young; sure living with the guy would have been like being at church, but he was just as much a politicial leader as a church leader and plenty of nonreligious history happened under Brigham's various roofs.

Plus there are no missionary sermons about the benefits and joys of polygamy, as Brother Brigham would have insisted upon in real life.

[easternerDC]

I think Chango brings up a valid point. It should not matter if it is a church place or not. Why should one expect to be proselytized just because they are visiting a church place. I don't think it is abnormal to have church people at an historic church place. But church people does not have to = proselytizing. Why does that have to go hand in hand?

I know that when I was living in DC, many people had said they would not go back to visit the temple in DC to see the x-mas lights because it got too irritating to fend off the missionaries.

[markg91359]

I think Chango brings up a valid point. It should not matter if it is a church place or not. Why should one expect to be proselytized just because they are visiting a church place. I don't think it is abnormal to have church people at an historic church place. But church people does not have to = proselytizing. Why does that have to go hand in hand?

I know that when I was living in DC, many people had said they would not go back to visit the temple in DC to see the x-mas lights because it got too irritating to fend off the missionaries.

Chango's point is well taken. I would like good accurate history when I visit an historical site. If I want to be prosletyzed, I can call the mission home in my area and ask for visits from the missionaries.

In the real world though, here's why it doesn't work like that:

1. Getting good accurate history is not for free. Even the missionaries don't really work for free. The church gives older missionaires a stipend of sorts. The young ones pay a certain amount per month to offset their expenses. The bottomline is that someone has to pay in order for there to be anyone manning an historical site.

2. The church is willing to commit a certain number of missionaries to historical sites because they view it as a conversion tool. If there were no conversions coming out of it they'd probably use these missionaries differently.

3. State and local governments can't really afford to staff even the historical sites that are under their control adequately. Its why they constantly are asking for volunteers and docents to help out. I remember a few years back, the legislature actually eliminated a couple of state parks because of funding issues. One example of this is Fort Buena Ventura in Ogden. Visitation wasn't what the state thought it should be, so they removed it from the state park registry and handed it over to Weber County.

4. This is the sad part, but I think its true as well. I love history. Chango appears to enjoy it too. In the real world, not that many people are interested in knowing why Cove Fort was established or how many wives Brigham Young had. For them, it seems too irrelevant to anything going on in their lives today. For many people there has to be a relevant "point" or "purpose" in order to get them interested in history. I think the notion that history validates the truth of the religion they are practicing is key to many who visit these sites. Otherwise, they probably wouldn't come at all.

5. On the bright side, I encourage all history lovers to visit Camp Floyd State Park in western Utah County. I had a marvelous talk from an interpretative park ranger who explained in detail the "Utah War of 1857". So, that kind of history is actually available in some places.

Finally, this has nothing to do with historical landmarks. However, those who want to read and discuss this sort of thing might consider joining the "Mormon History Association". You can find it online. This may satisfy your intellectual hunger.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by easternerDC

I know that when I was living in DC, many people had said they would not go back to visit the temple in DC to see the x-mas lights because it got too irritating to fend off the missionaries.

That kind of surprises me. I know that an awful lot of non-LDS people turn out to see the lights on Temple Square in Salt Lake City, and are never even approached by the missionaries. Normally, the missionaries will approach people who visit the Square during the daylight hours, but seem to recognize that when people are there to see the Christmas lights, that's all they really want to do.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by TCAS007

As for the state Capitol I would think it would be weird if there was a Missionary or the new museum in Salt Lake.

Old Deseret Village at This is the Place Heritage Park is a great place to go if you want to get a feel for pioneer history in Utah. It's not owned or run by the LDS Church. It's a state park and no proselytizing is permitted.

[oldtrader]

but Cove Fort?! Come on, that place was built to fight Indians and house stagecoach passengers!

Cove Fort was built by, and managed by the Mormon Church as a safe haven for members moving to Utah. A place to rest up on their travels. It was very much part of the Mormon Church history. That is why the Mormon Church operates it today, and you cannot tell the history of the fort without talking about the Mormons. If you go to Mormon Church Historic Sites, that they operate for members to go to and learn more about their history, expect to be talking about the Mormons at that site as that is what it is all about.

I found the same when I want to major Shaker, and Amish historic sites. I am neither, but I was very happy to learn about them and their history. Just as I went to two presidential libraries in 2 days (Truman and Eisenhower) and learned about their presidency and previous lives. The same when I went to American Indian historic sites, and learned about their history and traditions, including their native religions. And in Pearl Harbor, I learned more about the Japanese attack.

To understand a historic site, you have to learn about it's history. To expect to go to any historic site be it American Indian, any Religion, etc., etc., and not learn anything about what it was all about and there for, is not being reasonable.

If the Non Mormons don't want to learn about Mormons, then they should not go to Church Owned and managed Historic Sites, maintained to let people especially Mormons and others that are interested in their history know about it.

I am interested in learning about all types of religions, races, other countries, areas, etc., and cannot see why others cannot/will not have the same type of desires.

If you don't have the same curiosity, then you should save yourself anguish and not go to the type of sites that offend you.

[easternerDC]

^^ I don't think the issue is not wanting to learn about the LDS faith, its not wanting to be handed a BOM while there our talked to about joining the church while you are there to learn about the history.

I find LDS history to be very interesting, and have been fortunate to have worked with people when I was in DC who would share with me without being missionaries.

[TCAS007]

I understand what you are saying and don't think it's ok to be too pushy with the BOM. Even members don't like that or the "are you members of the church" question.

Also it is nicer to have someone local with a large background.
I agree.

But I still think that the places that were mentioned are places with an LDS history. Brigham Young was a prophet and many members want to see where he lived. So it's alright to have LDS missionaries do the tours in my opinion.

By the way they do have to pay to go on a mission and do not get paid. So yes it's volontary.

[InSandy]

Originally Posted by markg91359

The church gives older missionaires a stipend of sorts.

Not sure where you heard that, but it is not accurate. Senior couples all pay their own way. (Mission Presidents would be in a slightly different category)

Mormon history is multifaceted and can be very interesting.
LDS doctrine can sometimes be intimately entwined in LDS history.
You really do need to know both to understand them both.
When I visit Temple Square or the visitor center at any temple or even the various tabernacles around the state I would expect more religion.
I don't see Jacob Hamblin's home or Cove Fort to be in the same category.
As long as the church owns, manages and hosts the sites they do the religious views will overwhelm the historical views.
And if the church felt there was enough of a connection to the Camp Floyd and Stagecoach museum or the Territorial Statehouse in Filmore to take them over then maybe they wouldn't be slated for closure in the latest round of legislature tinkering with State Parks. But then at visit to Camp Floyd would be a completely different experience.