Gay Acceptance in St. George? (move to, population, Mormons)

[SteelCityRising]

Originally Posted by jmchzn

There are many cities more friendly to gay people. Why bother coming to Utah? Go to Frisco or NY where you can live a happy lifestyle and get fun parades too.

Why should we be "quarantined" and confined to only a select few cities just because you're uncomfortable living near us? There are homosexuals everywhere, even in Iran, contrary to their president's ludicrous statements at Columbia University. We pay taxes, bleed the same color blood, drive the same vehicles, etc., and your ideology does nothing but give me a very negative impression about Utah that will be very difficult for other kind folks to mitigate. I'm used to dealing with "your types" (hysterical right-wing zealots) here in my native Pennsylvania. I won't stand for it here in the Keystone State, and I won't stand to see you make others feel unwelcome 2,000 miles away in Utah either.

Originally Posted by jmchzn

Often Gay people bring a leftist ideology which is better off in big cities where God and country take a back seat to sex and drugs. Hollywood ideals don't belong in Utah.

There are Evangelical conservatives living in San Francisco, Boulder, Ithaca, Boston, etc. There are left-wingers living in Tuscaloosa, Cedar Rapids, Macon, and yes even little 'ole St. George. I find it very offensive for you to imply that residents in larger cities are only concerned with promiscuity and moral filth. (Salt Lake City IS now a larger city for your information). Furthermore, I find it hillarious that you consider tolerance to be a "Hollywood" ideal that doesn't belong in your state. Under that same notion would you like to prevent African-Americans and Hispanics from moving to Utah? After all, it was left-wingers like myself and my predecessors who fought very diligently to secure equal rights for minorities in the past, even though I myself come from an upper-middle-class Caucasian background. This thread is bound to get relocated to the "Politics and Other Controversies" forum before too long I'm sure (where it truly belongs), and at that point I will start to tear into what's wrong with right-wing logic just as much as you have berated we left-wingers.

Originally Posted by jmchzn

C'mon you have 49 other states. Why can't people leave us alone? Or better yet fit in! We don't care what you are but we don't need it shoved in our faces every 5 minutes.

How exactly are we encroaching upon your territory? If you honestly don't care what we are, then why this mass hysteria about trying to scare us away from Utah. Gays aren't societal burdens, you know. Most of us try to keep to ourselves (my partner and I won't even hold hands outside of our homes for fear of being shot here in super-red PA). As far as "fit in" is concerned, I could say the same thing about Mormons. The vast majority of the nation is either Roman Catholic or Baptist. If we were to follow what you preach, then why shouldn't folks who follow these two faiths attack the Latter-Day Saints for not "fitting in?" I myself have no qualms with your state's dominant religion (one of my professors is a Denver transplant and a Mormon). However, how can you fail to see the irony (and hypocrasy) about a Mormon, a small minority in this nation to begin with, telling another minority to conform to mainstream society?

Originally Posted by jmchzn

As long as there are no civil penalties for being gay why is there a gay agenda and why do I have to hear about it all the time?

Does wishing to secure civil equality ring a bell? I happen to live in one of the only Northeastern states that has yet to legalize either same-sex civil unions (or even same-sex marriage in the case of MA). Let's rewind 50 years or so. I'm sure many rural Caucasians were saying the same thing about African-Americans. "Everything they currently have is separate but equal, so why do I have to hear about them all the time?" They roared vociferously and caused massive positive social change in our nation that finally permitted African-Americans to be treated as cultural EQUALS. Similarly, it is now we homosexuals who are blaring the bugles and raising the battle cry for EQUAL civil rights after centuries of discrimination in this nation. I always hear you right-wing Republicans whining about us wanting "special" rights. How so? Is wanting my long-term partner and I to be able to secure the SAME legal, financial, and medical benefits as any heterosexual couple a "special" right? Not at all. Your mindset was wrong in the 1960s. It will be wrong too as we continue to rise up in mass protests about our own lack of civil rights as the years progress. My generation looks back upon the 1960s and thinks "what idiots" about people with your narrow-minded ideologies now that we have determined that African-Americans don't have cooties and are just as capable of being friends, neighbors, colleagues, and even romantic partners as any Caucasian. Future generations will look back at people like YOU and laugh at how narrow-minded people were during the Gay Civil Rights Movement as well. It's disgusting to hide behind God as a reason to discriminate. Folks did it against African-Americans in the 1960s, and they're doing it again today against we in the LGBT community as well.

Originally Posted by jmchzn

I don't introduce myself as Joe the heterosexual Mormon. If I talk to you I shouldn't know in the first five minutes your gay.

Do I walk up to clients and say "Nice to meet you. I'm Paul the homosexual political activist Protestant?" Of course not. I can't think of one instance where a gay/lesbian acquaintance of mine has ever been "open" about their sexual orientation in the manner that you implied. Why? Well, for starters, doing so in my area will most certainly elicit a very negative reaction, possibly escalating into verbal slurs or fists swinging at you. This is the exact reason why my partner and I hide ourselves even from my own family, which causes me so much mental stress that I often break down into tears at night worrying about if they'll ever find out about us, and I'm a very strong-willed male. The movie "Brokeback Mountain" was a bit too sexually-oriented for my tastes, but the basic gist of two married men who were forced to adhere to what folks like you WANTED them to be instead of pursuing romance with one another from the get-go is a common occurrence nowadays. Just look at ex-New Jersey governor Jim McGreevey as a perfect example of this. Who loses in the end? The families they start solely to try to conform to what mainstream society says that folks like us SHOULD follow.

Sometimes popular opinion in the United States is flawed. Mainstream American society also says that we should aspire to purchase McMansions in the suburbs. Does that mean I'm going to rush out and do so? Of course not. Why? I can see the long-term negative implications that unchecked sprawl is having upon our open space and don't wish to be a part of the problem. Likewise there are plenty of heterosexuals out there who probably agree with me about the gay civil rights issue but won't speak out in our defense because they'd rather adhere to the mainstream societal notion of shunning us because we spread AIDS through handshakes and secretly want to molest your children. There's an old saying that goes something like in modern adaptation. "One day they came for the Jews. I did nothing. The next day they came for the Latinos. I did nothing. The next day they came for Polish Catholics. I did nothing. Then they came for me." Heterosexuals who see social injustices occurring and won't speak out to oppose its spread are part of the problem, not the solution.

Originally Posted by jmchzn

I don't care but I certainly don't need legislation to force me to care.

No. However, I'm certain you'd be the first in line to cast a "Yes" vote for a statewide amendment to permanently ban both gay marriage and gay civil unions (which I believe Utah has already done and Pennsylvania is about to do in 2009). Do I care that some Christians think my long-term partner and I cementing our love for one another via a civil union somehow mitigates the meaning of their own marriages? No. Why? It doesn't affect me, just as how me and my partner engaging in a civil unions should also NOT affect YOU! Then again, they certainly do need legislation to force ME to care, don't they? Double-standards run amok amongst many who share your beliefs, but you're all too busy spreading intolerance to notice.

Originally Posted by jmchzn

So please why does everyone have to belong to a group and if you are in a group why do all the people not in the group want to change that group. THATS WHY IT'S A GROUP!

Aren't you just being a hypocrite here again by saying that one group shouldn't change another? What about heterosexuals, ONE GROUP, telling we homosexuals, ANOTHER GROUP, that WE should change in order to make YOU happy? What about right-wing Evangelical Republican conservatives in Utah telling left-wing Protestant Democrat liberals in Pennsylvania that WE should change? I realize I've spent the entirety of this debate thus far pointing out where your logic is flawed, but I don't at all expect to change the mindset of anyone. I have failed to do so in Pennsylvania, and I'm sure I'll fail to open anyone's eyes in Utah, a state with similar values, either.

Originally Posted by jmchzn

Shouldnt we focus on bringing America together,a house divided and all that stuff?

That's comical considering our current chief executive says he's likewise a "Uniter" who has managed to polarize this nation worse than at any other point during my brief 21-year tenure here. Thanks to President Bush we had MANY neighborhood arguments in 2004 in our subdivision alone from pro-Bush supporters and anti-Bush opponents clashing. Right-wingers told us that we were unpatriotic and didn't support our troops because we found fault with how President Bush was ruining...errr..."running" our nation. We shot back with how they were actually the ones who didn't support our troops by refusing to question the merits (or demerits) behind President Bush's decision to launch us into a war in Iraq based upon faulty intelligence in the first place. Over 3,000 (nearly 4,000) brave men and women have now paid the ultimate sacrifice, and I sadly can't see why. I always get the response of "Did you forget them there towers in New York" from Republicans, to which I reply "No. I did not. I remember quite well that USAMA BIN LADEN not Saddam Hussein admitted responsibility for 9/11, yet we decided to divert our attention away from Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan in order to topple the Hussein regime, who posed no viable threat to our well-being."

Sorry to get off on a rant there, but if you think it is the homosexuals and/or Democrats that have polarized our nation so severely, then may I remind you of who exactly was responsible for us engaging in an unpopular conflict in Baghdad. I'm actually fearful of a new Civil War breaking out here between the "red" states and the "blue" states thanks to what President Bush has done. It's truly quite scary.

Originally Posted by jmchzn

Oh now I'm homophobic. No I'm not.

Yes. You are. Why else would you want us to move to any of the other 49 states besides Utah if you weren't either afraid of us or slanted against us? Someone who is homophobic makes the exact claims of "Go away. We don't want your kinds 'round here" as you have done.

Originally Posted by jmchzn

The fact you ask is it safe leads me to believe you have bias feeling toward me. Mormonphobic.

Yawn. This is turning out to be an easy victory for me. The fact that you are attempting to hide behind your religion when it wasn't brought into play is characteristic of a weak debate opponent. I know for a fact that you alone do NOT represent ANY of the Mormons I know here in PA with your nasty remarks. I'm not Mormonphobic. On the contrary I've even been to one of your houses of worship to celebrate my best friend's birthday party and am good friends with my Mormon accounting professor here on campus. I actually respect and admire the Mormons for having such strong convictions towards their faith. Don't confuse someone accusing you of being homophobic with being Mormonphobic when your words do NOT represent the religion at-large or the half-dozen or so Mormons I know who are cordial to me, even though they know of my alternative sexual orientation.

Originally Posted by jmchzn

Like we're a cult that want to erradicate homosexuality from the planet. Guess what our group does not prefer it in our group. We don't embrace it. It's our choice our free speech our personal rights to persue happiness.

I would prefer not to have Republicans or right-wing conservatives in our nation who feel as if we ought to be legislating from the Holy Bible in a nation forged upon religious freedoms by those who fled Europe to escape the religious governmental style towards which we're currently headed under President Bush. Guess what? I tolerate them. I'm friends with folks here in Pennsylvania where a majority of people don't share my political beliefs. Why? We realize that there are more IMPORTANT things to base a friendship upon other than politics or religious affiliations. Likewise, people who are somewhat intelligent realize that there are more important reasons to befriend someone other than their sexual orientations.

Originally Posted by jmchzn

It's our right to religous freedom.

Likewise it is MY right to be able to enter into a legal contract without religious special interest groups meddling in politics and our governmental process. Only in the United States can an Atheist heterosexual couple who denounces God be permitted to MARRY while a Christian homosexual couple who volunteers in the community to try to spread the gospel of love not be permitted even to have a CIVIL UNION! I've stopped attending my church after our interim pastor gave a sermon a few weeks ago about Fox News, Rosie O'Donnell, etc. in order to put a right-wing political spin into his teachings. I don't need to sit in a pew and have someone tell me how I need to be voting when all I came for was to learn the blessings of our Lord WITHOUT political referencing.

Originally Posted by jmchzn

If we were muslim you would be marching for our right to burn American flags.

I happen to know of a Muslim who loves our nation; destroying the symbol that represents it would be the last thing on her mind. Mainstream Muslims aren't instructed to kill Americans and attack what we stand for. The perpetrators of 9/11 account for perhaps 2% of all Muslims in the world who follow an extremist sect. Perhaps 2% of Mormons would support blowing up abortion clinics and causing "collateral damage" in the way of killing patients and staff in order to prove a political point about abortion. Should I then make a nasty comment about the other 98% of Mormons likewise supporting blowing up abortion clinics and killing people based upon the despicable actions of just a few? I'm gay and don't march in Gay Pride Parades because I find their flagrant flaunting of sexual immorality to be disgusting. Then again folks like you probably think those participating in such events represent us as a whole.

Originally Posted by jmchzn

All of a sudden Sean Penn and Bruce Springsteen are the spokes people for America.

When did Hollywood celebrities claim to be the voice of the people? They're just as entitled to express their political beliefs to the media as I, a college student, have done in the past to local media. Nobody has to believe in what I say or what I stand for. Nobody has to likewise exalt these celebrities onto pedestals. I supported Barack Obama long before Oprah Winfrey threw herself into the political mixture in Iowa to support him. Likewise, many Americans may have had the same political beliefs as these celebrities long before they made them known.

Originally Posted by jmchzn

I've had it. I love God and country and apparently thats a bad thing these days.

It is great to love your God. It is great to love your country. It is WRONG to not be able to draw a distinction between your personal religious beliefs and the government. That is the entire gist of why I debate so heavily in politics. I don't appreciate that my own Christian beliefs are being rammed down the throat of Atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, Hindus, Agnostics, Pagans, Wiccans, etc. If an Atheist were to successfully make a bid for Congress and decided to attempt to pass legislation to remove "Under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance, Christians would be alarmed. Likewise non-Christians are alarmed that we Christians (namely President Bush) are promoting so much legislation based upon their personal religious beliefs. By the way, "I've had it" with folks like you too.

Originally Posted by jmchzn

What does that have to do with being gay?

WHEN FOLKS SUPPORT A BAN ON SAME-SEX CIVIL UNIONS BECAUSE THEIR GOD "WOULDN'T WANT IT THAT WAY," IT BECOMES AN ISSUE BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO COMBINE PERSONAL RELIGIOUS BELIEFS WITH LEGISLATION! How many times do I have to shout this out??!!

Originally Posted by jmchzn

The gay agenda always seems to go way left to the point of America sucks,Christmas sucks,The president of the United States sucks,our troops suck but gay marriage is good for America.

May I ask you a few honest questions? How old are you? What is your highest level of educational attainment? I'm just curious to see how someone who seems to be older than I am and more educated than I am can spew such hatred towards people like me. I'm gay. I think the United States is a great nation, but it is not infallible; social injustices need to be brought to light. I just celebrated a wonderful Christmas by sharing compassion with friends and family. That debunks your claim that the "gay agenda" attacks Christmas. I won't argue that I dislike President Bush and how he thinks he is the American Pope in how God speaks to him in how he should legislate. Our troops do not suck. Right-wingers suck because a large group of them attended a military funeral to criminalize a fallen soldier because it came to light after he gave the ultimate sacrifice that he was gay. A man like that willingly enlisted to defend the freedoms of those very same people who came out to slam his integrity into the ground at his funeral as his family grieved. If that type of callous demonstration isn't enough to sour someone on what is wrong with our nation today, then I don't know what is. Perhaps seeing right-wingers capitalizing upon the brutal slaying of Matthew Shepard as a means to promote an anti-gay agenda is likewise as despicable as having that poor soldier's honor tainted. I DO believe gay marriage would be good for our nation because it would put a stop to all of the bickering and bloodshed over the issue and help to stop the Gay Civil Rights Movement from becoming as violent and hostile as a similar Civil Rights Movement did in the South in the 1960s. Explain to me why same-sex marriage is "bad" for America WITHOUT using the word "God." I have yet to meet one right-winger who could do that.

Originally Posted by jmchzn

Why don't the gay voice help fix real issues like porn, poverty,drugs,racism, healthcare and not socialized medicine,attack on morals in general, attacks on God who by the way this country was founded.

I could ask the same things about the "straight voice." Our nation's quality-of-life continues to spiral downwards while the right-wing can only focus on stopping Adam & Steve. Go to Boston sometime and ask a heterosexual couple how giving gays the right to wed has damaged THEIR marriage or THEIR state's living conditions. You might be surprised by their response. Contrary to popular belief, we here in the Northeast are not morons.

Originally Posted by jmchzn

Why are we ashamed to speak english and fight to remain a christian based nation? Gays in general are part of the far left movement we are not. Thank God! ENOUGH ALREADY WE ARE LOSING OUR COUNTRY. Socialism here we come.

I've had just about enough of your hatred. I'm glad I'll never be moving to Utah, especially when so few are coming to the defense of people like me. That alone doesn't bode well for the state at-large. In Pennsylvania the issue has become so heated that there are now even billboards along our freeways from right-wingers with left-wingers firing back in our newspapers. If the lack of support in this thread is any indication, I'd be concerned as a gay person living in Utah.

[coolcats]

Whoa … that was long. Let’s make sure to keep this specific to St. George and Utah in general … and not general political discussions.

[SteelCityRising]

Originally Posted by coolcats

Whoa … that was long. Let’s make sure to keep this specific to St. George and Utah in general … and not general political discussions.

Agreed. I apologize for losing my cool. I just didn't appreciate seeing so many nasty things posted about me as a gay male and wasn't about to let those statements go unaddressed, whether anyone wants to take a half-hour to digest them or not.

[Abstrakt]

jmchzn is the typical Utahn toward understanding and accepting of gay culture. What I hear most in regards to gays in Utah is "I don't care that they are gay as long as they don't act gay around me" which as I'm sure you already know translates to "I don't like gays".

The church is very anti gay and thinks homosexuality is a sin. Any culture who compares homosexuality to murder probably isn't the ideal place for gay people. A high percentage of the gay community in Utah is in the closet and extremely weird and uncomfortable with themselves. The people who tell you to just go to San Fransisco are stupid and obviously don't understand that you aren't looking for a gay drug party scene but I also don't think St George will turn out to be what you think. There are Colorado cities that offer the same perks as St. George with a less conservative environment.

[Gaart]

I have lived in St. George for 7 years and I am not of the "dominant faith". I work in a large retail establishment and see people from all walks of life. We have a significant community of lesbians; but gay men are a rarity. I think one of the biggest reasons, is that there is no "night life" here. You really have to go to private parties to get any action. There is only one bar in town and it is definitely not "gay friendly". So whoever told you that this would be the new PS, is trying to sell you a bunch of bull. Unless the laws drastically change, it will be a "cold day in hell" before this town would ever be a match to PS. Most people here, have to travel to Mesquite to purchase their liquor, it is strictly controlled in this state. The only alcohol you can buy at a grocery store is what is termed: "Mormon Beer". It is 3.2% alcohol and you have to drink an entire six-pack, just to get a buzz.
I am a (barely) senior citizen and am just "coming out of the closet". When I moved here, I was married and had been for over 30 years. My wife passed away this last summer and I want to finally let my "true self" come out. I have been searching dating sites and trying to locate groups that I could "get in" with to start the rest of my life. I have been running into a lot of dead ends and will probably not stay here, if I can't get something going.
If you want to check the town out, I would look for a short-term rental...I think you would be disappointed.

[leiliyah]

I grew up here, moved away for awhile, and am back for a short time. I did a lot of the community theatre as a chila and teenager, and there is definitely a niche for the gay community here in that arena. After having such exposure to that lifestyle, as I got older it suprised me that so many people here find it so foreign.

However, I think the winds are definitely starting to change. A younger sibling who is still in school has openly gay friends at the local high schools, as well as at the local high school for the performing arts. There are a ton of gay actors that relocate in the summer to perform in the productions at Tuacahn.. when I was there they even held Gay Pride celebrations in the green room. That has been awhile though.

Basically, just like any other smaller town there will likely be a mixed reaction. But seriously if this is somewhere you'd like to be, come! People are gradually getting to be more open minded, and meeting people in their own community that are GOOD PEOPLE and not just "gay" can only help.

[RCL]

I'm openly gay here in St George and I say move here. Don't let people like Jimchzn deter you if you really want to live here. There are a lot of mormons, and some are very nice...but most of them are mean to anyone who simply isn't mormon, it has nothing to do with being gay. They are mean to others for lots of reasons...but, mostly they are simply unhappy with having to be constrained to a religion that they feel forced to stay in or risk losing their family. (modcut-inflammatory)

There are plenty of people coming from CA, NY, Boston, and the snow-belt states,(modcut-inflammatory).There are plenty of people to meet.

Someone doesn't want to know that I'm gay in the first 5 minutes? Well, tsk tsk tsk, isn't that a shame. May I offer a tissue for your issue? Why the hell not? If you're holding hands with your wife/husband and/or kissing them, that tells me you're straight. And people are more than willing to tell me they are mormon within 5 minutes (as if that's "normal". I mean, people think that getting baptized for dead people will earn them points with "god". C'mon. Pass the poop scoop, it's getting thick.)


Utah became a state in 1896, it's part of this free country, in which the constitution applies to all (not just heterosexuals). I say, come here and be your self. (modcut- unecessary)

[oldtrader]

My gay nephew lived in St George for a while, and he says it is not gay friendly. In fact, he says it is the least gay friendly city he has lived in.

[Katzpur]

Why would anyone voluntarily choose to live someplace where "most of the people are mean"? I know I wouldn't. There is a whole world full of places to live.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by RCL

There are a lot of mormons, and some are very nice...but most of them are mean to anyone who simply isn't mormon, it has nothing to do with being gay. They are mean to others for lots of reasons...but, mostly they are simply unhappy with having to be constrained to a religion that they feel forced to stay in or risk losing their family. (modcut-inflammatory)

I would like to see some meaningful, verifiable facts here -- as to why Mormons are mean. You say it's mostly "simply unhappy with having to be constrained to a religion that they feel forced to stay in or risk losing their family." How do you know this? Is this what they've told you? Do they generally say something along the lines of "Oh, dear! I was mean to you, wasn't I? I'm sorry. You see I'd really be a pretty nice person, but, hey, I've got an excuse. I'm a Mormon, see, and I am just so unhappy being in this religion, since I really, really want out. But I'm forced to stay, man, because if I don't I'll lose my family. It just sucks so bad!!! Anyway, that's the real reason I'm so mean to you."? I would like to know precisely how many such conversations you've had like this.