When in Rome . . . (St. George, Cedar City, Francis: fit in, transplants, apartment)

[Idunn]

Having spent some time in Utah, I find is an often beautiful state. Particularly southern Utah. Landscapes such as Zion National Park can be otherworldly. Then also the communities are usually fairly trim and proper, clean, and well ordered. Not Disneyland, but as if the citizens care.

I'd attribute a good deal of that to the Church of the Later Day Saints, the Mormons. My experience with them is limited to the few times they arrived at the door, in other states, to proselytize. Once, long ago, when I had enough curiosity to attend one of their church services. Obviously nothing stuck as I am anything but Mormon; if knowing some of my beliefs they might consider them entirely bizarre. Myself, some of their's. But in having traveled through Utah on more than one occasion, and presently being in St. George, I find in balance much to admire, and otherwise that I can largely ignore. Aside from possibly showing up on your doorstep, they do not seem as concerned with saving the world, and me, as some Christians I know of. Basically my experience has been one of politeness.

On the other hand, I haven't been out and about town much, and am content enough to be left alone. If seeking to actively socialize, to work locally, or engage in politics, my experience probably informed differently. The other day I happened to notice a woman at the mall who was obviously Mormon, although presumably most everyone else is as well, as she was stereotypical in a long dress, from head to toe, with her full hair pushed up and tied back in a braid. But it occurred to me sometime later that if anything was odd in that picture it was me. My dress vaguely similar to that most common, but hers traditional, I suppose, and of this place, whereas I am more or less just passing through.

Utah may be part of the United States, although my understanding the Mormons were not always too keen on that idea. They did settle here first, even if fur trappers and others had passed through before, and one might imagine what any of the native indians think of all that has transpired in the last 200 years or so. Be that as it may, I did realize after a fashion, even if basically knowing it, that Utah is unique in being heavily Mormon, some areas, such as this, even more so. Just driving past on I-15, or stopping briefly, one may not appreciate as much, as the patina of the modern 21st century covers all. But it is. So you might be an American in America, but you are also in Utah.

If referring to the Montana forum the reader will notice an underlying current, sometimes rising plainly to the surface, of a certain disenchantment with modern America, most particularly some California transplants. This has not so much to do with California as certain individuals that bring their outlook and habits with them and seem determined to have Montana and the natives adjust to them. I notice a certain lack of enthusiasm for that. It's not just Californian's either, but any other that shows up more determined to change things than fit in. The result a certain tension, and a changing landscape of more houses and traffic, shifting mores, certain new amenities, but also a new disquiet.

Having recently been in Montana I can report at being surprised at how hazy, basically polluted, the sky was across all the western part of the state. But it was in a good part of Oregon and California as well. Say what they will, it is here too at times. High temperatures and the times we live in, I suppose. But I was also pleased to note the high and rational speed limits, and largely open roads with little traffic. By west coast standards, there is none. Also this due a relatively small population, smaller towns with lots of space in between. Some of these towns, a good many of them on the east side of the Rocky Mountains, seem a bit worn. Somewhat like what the better part of this country may appear, I fear, if we do not reform our ways. Anyway, apparently not all that prosperous, or with the likelihood of enjoying that anytime soon. But there is also the sense that one has stepped back in time, in certain ways. Life appears to be, and lived, at a different pace. Someone from a large metro area might never assume it could be this way. One might see how natives of long standing might rather prefer it this way, and take exception to new comers wanting to transform it all into subdivisions and trophy houses.

Were I LDS, I might feel the same in some respects. It doesn't take long around here to notice the many small children. Given global over population, I'd say likely too many, but they are otherwise clean and well dressed. They are obviously a priority. Some places I've been this is anything but the case. Some places you wouldn't want to be a child. Or even an adult for that matter. As a child here you could probably expect three squares, a good roof over your head, with a loving and attentive family. Not to the extent of a panacea, mind you, but still in measure. More so than some other places. So I can understand why the locals might take a certain exception to outsiders showing up with sometimes strange ideas, thinking it a fine place to live if only perhaps not for the prevalence of the LDS. From their vantage, they have things ordered more or less right, with any new comer suspect in possibly mucking it up. Why wouldn't they feel that way? Insofar as I know the Mormon faith is fairly easy about embracing technology, but socially draws the line with many aspects of modern America. I know all about hugging trees in California, but some of the notions common to either coast of this nation they would just as soon not filtered into Utah.

If you think about it, it makes sense. How comfortable would those on the upper east side of Manhattan be if a large group of evangelical Christians moved into their co-op apartment? Probably with the same suspicion as some here view I-15 cutting through town and some that arrive via it, with notions of blue sky and golf courses and possibly little understanding or regard for the local culture. Barbarians at the gate? No way, they've become your new neighbor and increased the size of your community more than tenfold. And then asking why you are so strange.

Me, I'm just enjoying the heat. All the world is a strange place, this particular spot of it no more than the rest, only different in detail.

[Lamborgotti]

Don't take this personally, but I had to read some parts of that several times to understand what you're trying to say. I'm also struggling to see what what exactly the point of it all was.

Would you mind elaborating on the fourth paragraph? And also, if you wouldn't mind, the sixth paragraph. I'm sorry, it just seems a little too vague to agree. What do you mean when you say, "Some of these towns, a good many of them on the east side of the Rocky Mountains, seem a bit worn. Somewhat like what the better part of this country may appear, I fear, if we do not reform our ways. Anyway, apparently not all that prosperous, or with the likelihood of enjoying that anytime soon?" What cities are you referring to, and what is the matter with them?

[Idunn]

I felt Choteau, MT, at the junction of US 287 and US 89 had a certain charm, and as I was driving towards and through Browning, MT you might as easily guess some of the towns I passed. Decorum suggests I otherwise not mention them.

The point was not so much that some of them looked downtrodden, because to my eyes they did, but reflected another time and place. In only passing through I can only speculate how the locals regarded this state of affairs, but would note that in contrast most any place in Utah looks more put together and prosperous. The allusion to the US in general perhaps shouldn't have been included as a reflection of the economic and social direction of this country, and thus a discussion perhaps best in another time and place. But it was indeed a thought I had when there. There is a thread on the Kansas forum concerning the decline of many rural towns there. Perhaps inevitable. With experience of some Colorado ghost towns that expired soon after the ore ran out, I tend to see nothing as a given.

But this is a subjective matter. They may not care whether I appreciated some of their towns or not, or aspects of the landscape, which I did, and this more the point. Someone with the experience and sensibility of modern, new suburbs might suggest as much there by way of 'improvement,' and perhaps surprised if the idea unwelcome. Maybe not, or perhaps enthusiasm for only certain aspects. Only this not a given. Kalispell, MT and the surrounding area was different, more familiar to eyes accustomed to box stores, chains, and new construction. More traffic as well. The feel and type of life probably different. But again, this is a subjective thing.

As is my impression of St. George. Which is more the topic. If at times, especially here I have the feeling of being a stranger in a strange land. Which of course is a personal assessment. But led me to ponder our relation to place and society, and therein how these societies are constituted, on what premise, and why we should necessarily expect them to be one way or the other. If anything, I feel the need and desire to have a certain respect for what is here and those that created it. If this doesn't make perfectly plain sense, it doesn't to me either. But why I wrote of it.

[Handyjoe70]

Idunn,

Great thread!

A lot of people here can't grasp that concept and are very disrepectful to the history of the great state of Utah and the Mormon establishment. People whine about how Mormons are close-minded and are too conservative. Utah was built by Mormons, and for Mormons.

They were persecuted and even killed back east for their views. They came to Utah to get away from people who hated them.They don't force people to come to Utah but people who move to Utah by choice should respect the fact that this is a predominantly Mormon state.Mormons are friendly people and take great pride in keeping their neighborhoods clean and safe unlike the dangerous liberal run cities. Mormons don't want their cities to become like San Fran, L.A., Chicago, Detroit, or NYC. They have a right to be distrustful and skeptical of outsiders intentions.

I wonder how people from San Francisco would feel if thousands of Mormons moved into the Bay area and told gay liberals that they needed to be more conservative. Yes, "when in Rome do as Romans do".

If people don't like Mormons they shouldn't move to Utah. Life is too short to be miserable and people are better off surrounding themselves with people who share the same values.By the way, I'm not Mormon but I have deep respect for their beliefs and share their conservative family values. I currently reside in the northeast but due to the gross intolerance and hatred for conservative viewpoints I feel that Southern Utah will be a better fit for my family.You want to talk about intolerance? Try living in California or New York when you are a conservative.

No thanks. I'll take harmony over diversity any day.

[NYtoVT]

From a native Northeasterer's viewpoint: We moved here (Cedar City, UT) a little more than 2 years ago and couldn't be happier. I was elated to get out of the ultra-liberal atmosphere that pervades just about the entire Northeast.
Re Mormons:. I find them to be the most friendly and outgoing people I have ever met. I really don't care about the tenents of their beliefs. If they treat me like a human thean they will receive the same. They are hardworking to a fault and their families are their world. I really don't see much not to like. What I DO find is that they are very insular and a bit naive but that is changing as the world is encroaching upon them weather they like it or not. So as far as I am concerned, the world needs more people like the Mormons. Also one other thing. Sundays are a great time to shop since no one is around. We have adapted to living amongst the LDS and it's really not that hard to do.

[Handyjoe70]

I truly hope that things stay the way they are in Utah. Give it 20 years and the whole country will be liberal. Liberals won't be happy until they conquer every small town in America with their so-called "progressive" -- America hating -- global agenda. And anyone who gets in their way will be called "racist", "sexist", or "homophobe". Those three names are hurled whenever a logical debate can't be won. They started with the coasts, then the big cities across America, and now have their sights set on converting Mormons in small towns to their religion of liberalism and political correctness. I think the converting is the other way around.

It's already happening. Proof?

Obama won Salt Lake county and Summit county decisively in 2008; therefore, how conservative is Utah if their biggest city voted for Obama?

George W. Bush won Salt Lake county by a landslide in 2004 (60% vs 37%), and also won Summit county (52% vs 45%). In just 4 short years, the power has completely shifted the other way. I see a trend here.

So, who's really doing the converting here?


Anyway, I look forward to joining you all soon and "doing as Romans do".

[toby04]

Originally Posted by NYtoVT

From a native Northeasterer's viewpoint: We moved here (Cedar City, UT) a little more than 2 years ago and couldn't be happier. I was elated to get out of the ultra-liberal atmosphere that pervades just about the entire Northeast.
Re Mormons:. I find them to be the most friendly and outgoing people I have ever met. I really don't care about the tenents of their beliefs. If they treat me like a human thean they will receive the same. They are hardworking to a fault and their families are their world. I really don't see much not to like. What I DO find is that they are very insular and a bit naive but that is changing as the world is encroaching upon them weather they like it or not. So as far as I am concerned, the world needs more people like the Mormons. Also one other thing. Sundays are a great time to shop since no one is around. We have adapted to living amongst the LDS and it's really not that hard to do.

I second this!