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Old 03-13-2009, 08:00 PM
 
389 posts, read 542,650 times
Reputation: 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishtacos View Post

St. Louis isn't a growth population market, and it historically is not a free spending consumer market. A very relevant viewpoint is that St. Louis doesn't have the consumer spending dollars to go around, even in a better economy, let alone this one, to support 4 major sports teams, not including soccer.
Quote:
[SIZE=2]McCarthy points to Scottrade Center as an impressive home for all-around entertainment. “St. Louis is the seventh largest market in the country in terms of entertainment,” he notes, “and, in population count, we are 17th overall.” [/SIZE]
I assume they wouldn't tout St. Louis as the seventh largest market in terms of entertainment if it wasn't a free spending consumer market. I guess I'll just ask you're basing your conjecture on? not a free spending consumer market?

On average our per capita income is too low even for 3 teams yet we manage to support them, so while I agree we're frugal, if that's what you meant, we also support our teams.
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Old 03-13-2009, 08:09 PM
 
1,703 posts, read 3,701,989 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arch_genesis View Post
I'm not pushing for an nba team right now, never was, I even suggested your argument for you.

Also, Fish Tacos you should probably correct your sentence. 25 consecutive playoff appearances without a conference championship nor a stanley cup ..no other team in the league would want to claim that.

Alas I'll agree with you, like I said, and I'm sure its been said before Greater St. Louis is too financially leveraged to support an NBA team at the moment. My problem is with people who are put off, all together, at the idea of having a team at all one day. The "St. Louis is a baseball city" crowd.
My sentence was perfectly correct. The only thing I would have added that the Blues did that despite never having competent deep pocketed ownership in their history.
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Old 03-13-2009, 08:19 PM
 
389 posts, read 542,650 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishtacos View Post
My sentence was perfectly correct. The only thing I would have added that the Blues did that despite never having competent deep pocketed ownership in their history.
Is there not a salary cap in the NHL or something?
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Old 03-14-2009, 01:54 PM
 
1,703 posts, read 3,701,989 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arch_genesis View Post
Is there not a salary cap in the NHL or something?
The salary cap in the NHL has not even been in existence 3 years to date. So for decades, there was no luxury tax, revenue sharing, salary cap, or salary floor.

And, under the current system, teams can go over the cap, there are guaranteed salaries, payroll minimums, and buyouts allowed.

As I said the couple of times the Blues have had deep pocketed owners, they were poorly run. (Solomon, Laurie). Under Ornest, Shanahan, Checketts, the Blues were run better but the owners in those situation did not, or currently do not have in Checketts case, deep pockets, in terms of NHL ownership. This affects a lot of aspects of a team on and off the ice. So far Checketts has had a solid strategy of building a team, and also in PR and marketing. It'll take time to build a winner, and more competitive team, and it will take in the Blues case, lots of successful evaluation and development of young players, ...which isn't always a given.

And, the Blues are in their current situation because the previous owner, not experienced in owning a professional sports team, and not experienced in hockey in any way, ran the team poorly. His intentions were good, but his approach was to go for it all at one time and if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out, and it didn't. A more reasonable approach would have been a mix of youth development combined with appropriate mid level and high level free agents. The end result was failed opportunities, poor management, and a guy who was determined to sell the team...and such so that he was willing to make the mistake of not buying low and selling high. He mistakenly sold off valuable ingredients to the franchise just to get rid of the team at a lower price. This of course, set the Blues back years as far as competitiveness, something the team hasn't really ever seen. The team has been competitive most of its history except the past couple of seasons and some rough times in the 70's.

In today's what have we done for me lately society, some people are getting antsy....some people left during the lockout a few years back and haven't come back....if and when the Blues are much more successful and competitve than now, fandom will be there in terms of attendance (already getting there), in terms of merchandise sales, television ratings, etc...to at least be at a much more competitive standpoint.

Now, if the league would go back to home teams wearing white jerseys and visitors using road jerseys, then I'd be a happy person. It's silly to see an opponent's white uniforms every night, when if your team wears white at home, you get to see a variety of colors, etc...among other things.

Last edited by Fishtacos; 03-14-2009 at 02:03 PM..
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Old 03-14-2009, 10:28 PM
 
13 posts, read 22,051 times
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Default No NBA in St. Louis

Quote:
Originally Posted by arch_genesis View Post
I assume they wouldn't tout St. Louis as the seventh largest market in terms of entertainment if it wasn't a free spending consumer market. I guess I'll just ask you're basing your conjecture on? not a free spending consumer market?

On average our per capita income is too low even for 3 teams yet we manage to support them, so while I agree we're frugal, if that's what you meant, we also support our teams.

Hmmm...the Rams have more and more blacked out games with each progressive season (as if they were worth watching at 2-14), and will likely be back in L.A. in 2011;the Blues are virtually GIVING away tickets to see a semi-competitive team; and the Cardinals will always get decent crowds because other than Cardinal games and float trips, there is NOTHING to do in this town in the summertime!

STL: Baseball support: excellent. Hockey support: moderate. Football support: negigible.

The biggest support faction in STL is for Nostalgia for the "good old days" i.e. "where'd ya go ta high school?"

Just an observation from a three-year resident and native of a FOUR sport city.
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Old 03-14-2009, 10:45 PM
 
Location: Southeast Missouri
5,823 posts, read 11,434,520 times
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Ironic that your name is The Solid Truth, since it's not.

Quote:
the Blues are virtually GIVING away tickets to see a semi-competitive team
The Blues have the lowest ticket prices in the league, but their season-ticket base is pretty strong. And they get good attendance. And semi-competitive? Hardly. Maybe the last 3 years, but the Blues are 3 points out of a playoff spot and they are 31-29-8.

Quote:
Hmmm...the Rams have more and more blacked out games with each progressive season (as if they were worth watching at 2-14), and will likely be back in L.A. in 2011
I disagree. The Rams have a new head coach a plan going forward. And as the Rams get better, so will the ratings. The Rams had pretty good attendance last year besides being 2-14.
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Old 03-15-2009, 09:30 AM
 
13 posts, read 22,051 times
Reputation: 10
Whatever, dude. Maybe the local paper down there in Southeast Missourah puts a more positive spin on the Blues and Lambs. The Blues are fighting for a playoff spot in a league where 50 Percent of the teams get in the playoffs! Yes, the Blues are improving, I enjoy going to a few games now and then, I hope they get in the playoffs this year, but they are a few seasons away from being a top tier team again.

I won't even comment on the Lambs. That franchise is a joke. I have season tickets to my hometown team, a two-time Super Bowl winner and owners of a 39-year home sellout streak. I didn't know what "blackout" meant until I was transferred to STL. The rowdiest crowds at the Lambs games are when the Bears or Steelers are in town and the out-of-town fans overrun the place.

I really do hope the Lambs stay in STL, but either them, Buffalo or Jacksonville will be in L.A. in two-three years.

STL should stick to baseball, hockey and washers.

Good luck and thanks to Torry Holt, wherever he plays. Class Act.
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Old 03-15-2009, 10:26 AM
 
389 posts, read 542,650 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Solid Truth View Post
Whatever, dude. Maybe the local paper down there in Southeast Missourah puts a more positive spin on the Blues and Lambs. The Blues are fighting for a playoff spot in a league where 50 Percent of the teams get in the playoffs! Yes, the Blues are improving, I enjoy going to a few games now and then, I hope they get in the playoffs this year, but they are a few seasons away from being a top tier team again.

I won't even comment on the Lambs. That franchise is a joke. I have season tickets to my hometown team, a two-time Super Bowl winner and owners of a 39-year home sellout streak. I didn't know what "blackout" meant until I was transferred to STL. The rowdiest crowds at the Lambs games are when the Bears or Steelers are in town and the out-of-town fans overrun the place.

I really do hope the Lambs stay in STL, but either them, Buffalo or Jacksonville will be in L.A. in two-three years.

STL should stick to baseball, hockey and washers.

Good luck and thanks to Torry Holt, wherever he plays. Class Act.
Well Chip Rosenbloom has gone on record saying he wants the team to remain in St. Louis and he'll probably sell a team to someone who wants to keep it in st. louis. Already, Stanley Kroenke a St. Louisian owns part of the rams...as well as the NBA team the Denver Nuggets.

Furthermore the rams front office have been doing an upstanding job moving and gathering talent.. much better than the cardinals have this offseason (unfortunately). Still the rams managed to sell around 91% of their tickets. Everyone read the headline "the games aren't sold out" and went bezerk with speculation. The Rams in St. Louis are going to be fine.
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Old 03-15-2009, 12:44 PM
 
1,703 posts, read 3,701,989 times
Reputation: 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Solid Truth View Post
Hmmm...the Rams have more and more blacked out games with each progressive season (as if they were worth watching at 2-14), and will likely be back in L.A. in 2011;the Blues are virtually GIVING away tickets to see a semi-competitive team; and the Cardinals will always get decent crowds because other than Cardinal games and float trips, there is NOTHING to do in this town in the summertime!

STL: Baseball support: excellent. Hockey support: moderate. Football support: negigible.

The biggest support faction in STL is for Nostalgia for the "good old days" i.e. "where'd ya go ta high school?"

Just an observation from a three-year resident and native of a FOUR sport city.
The Rams have had EXCELLENT support in St. Louis from fans. EXCELLENT. They will never return to L.A. which supported the team much worse despite the massive size of the market.

The Rams have sold out most of their games over 13 seasons in St. Louis. This despite ineptitude of ownership and management most of that time. The biggest myth in St. Louis sports is that the Rams do not have support.

Hmm what about all those blackouts in other markets? How about the big bad fandom of the Washington Redskins, completely overtaken by thousands and thousands of Steelers fans on Monday Night football this past season, embarrassing. Chicago Bears anyone? They couldn't fill up Soldier Field for their playoff game a couple of years ago v Seattle. No shows anyone? Ever been to Soldier Field for a Bears v Packer game? Hello Lambeaux South.

You couldn't be more wrong about the Rams and their local support. It's the biggest myth out there. It's excellent. And, consider the long time support of regional teams, Green Bay, K.C., Chicago, etc...which decreases the fan pool a great deal regionally for St. Louis, yet the team still gets plenty of support for its football team. I hate to tell ya, but when you go 2-14, and have several years of ineptitude by management, there will be some no shows anywhere in the league.

The NHL had a lockout. What you should be doing is comparing the Blues to the rest of the league, something you didn't. You should also be noting that the previous ownership gave away elite level, talented, popular players. The Blues are routinely one of the better supported NHL teams in the league, despite, routinely coming up short in the post season.

You should have also compared the Rams to the rest of the league and you didn't do that either.

Ahhh the common complaint of nothing to do...there's plenty to do, you simply aren't seeking any of it out.

You couldn't be more uninformed on St. Louis sports support.

I hope you aren't a KC Chiefs fan...wow I'd feel sorry for you....with all of the fans abandoning the team as the season progresses the past few years...plenty of no shows and visiting team fans.....not exactly a tough ticket to get from locals.

Last edited by Fishtacos; 03-15-2009 at 12:57 PM..
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Old 03-15-2009, 01:35 PM
 
1,703 posts, read 3,701,989 times
Reputation: 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Solid Truth View Post
Whatever, dude. Maybe the local paper down there in Southeast Missourah puts a more positive spin on the Blues and Lambs. The Blues are fighting for a playoff spot in a league where 50 Percent of the teams get in the playoffs! Yes, the Blues are improving, I enjoy going to a few games now and then, I hope they get in the playoffs this year, but they are a few seasons away from being a top tier team again.

I won't even comment on the Lambs. That franchise is a joke. I have season tickets to my hometown team, a two-time Super Bowl winner and owners of a 39-year home sellout streak. I didn't know what "blackout" meant until I was transferred to STL. The rowdiest crowds at the Lambs games are when the Bears or Steelers are in town and the out-of-town fans overrun the place.

I really do hope the Lambs stay in STL, but either them, Buffalo or Jacksonville will be in L.A. in two-three years.

STL should stick to baseball, hockey and washers.

Good luck and thanks to Torry Holt, wherever he plays. Class Act.
So that means you are from Miami or Denver, the only 4 sport, two Super Bowl winners in the NFL. Unless you are untruthful or inaccurate....

Let's take a look.

Baseball: St. Louis has averaged in the top 5 in baseball attendance the past 5 years and beyond. Florida has averaged 29th and Colorado 19th out of 30 teams.

NHL: Prior to the lockout and sale of the team, giving away the team's best players, the Blues averaged top 5 in the league in hockey attendance, more than doubling the rankings of Colorado and Florida, who weren't in the same stratosphere as the Blues in attendance.

Football: The Dolphins started play in 1966. The Broncos started play in 1960. The St. Louis Rams began play in 1995. Quite a difference. Miami draws fans from all over the huge state of Florida. Denver is the only professional NFL team in all of Colorado. It borders 7 states, 6 of which do not have NFL teams. At only 8 home games per year, people can and do come from far and wide to see them play. Oh, and that 7th bordering state went many decades without a team and they even had blackouts during their Super Bowl run this past year, the Arizona Cardinals. St. Louisans know all too well that Bill Bidwill has been the worst owner in sports over the past several decades. Took a few decades for them to not play in a outdated college stadium. The Rams despite much greater competition for regional fandom than either of those two NFL teams, and despite the previous lack of team, lack of quality ownership under Bidwill, the team sold out all of its games almost 70k per game for its first dozen or so seasons. Remarkable.

The Miami MLS soccer team folded long ago do to lack of fan support and Colorado's ranks in the bottom couple of MLS currently despite the brand new facility.

When is the last time either of those places hosted the NCAA men's Final Four as St. Louis did a couple of years ago? The womens final four is in St. Louis this year. The NCAA wrestling championships call St. Louis home and have had record attendance. The college hockey Frozen Four came to town with record attendance once again within past couple of years. More than 20k fans attended the mid-major MVC tourney championship for a couple of years in a row in the past couple of years, once again in St. Louis.

BMW Golf Championships anyone? Yep in St. Louis last year.

St. Louis Aces tennis? The Williams sisters, Bryan brothers, Anna Kournakova, even Pete Sampras has played there in Forest Park in the past few years.

NCAA lacrosse out in Fenton, check.

and on and on....so it goes....
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