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Here's some interesting history about when St. Louis actually did have professional basketball. In their first and second incarnations, they were the Tri-Cities Blackhawks (home games played in Moline & Rock Island, IL, as well was Davenport, IA; 1946-51) and the Milwaukee Hawks (1951-55). The St. Louis Hawks were in the city from 1955-68. During that time, they recorded 4 conference titles and what remains the franchise's only NBA Championship, in 1958 over the Celtics (though Bill Russell had been badly hobbled by a sprained ankle midway through the series). Despite this, owner Ben Kerner's desire for a new arena to boost revenue was repeatedly thwarted by the city, as they played their home games mostly in the aging Kiel Auditorium and the poorly maintained "Checkerdome". Thus, the team moved south in 1968.
St. Louis did have an ABA team for 2 seasons, the Spirits of St. Louis, who existed as the now-defunct league limped toward implosion from 1974-76. They were the 3rd coming of a franchise that had been first the Houston Mavericks and then the Carolina Cougars. They might as well have been an expansion team, though; only 1 or 2 Cougars were kept on as Spirits. They died when it became clear that the NBA would only allow 4 teams to join from the ABA, spending their last season often playing to crowds of anywhere from 400-1,000 in a league that was on life support. I wonder where an NBA franchise in St. Louis would play; Golden State did play at the San Jose Arena for a bit while the Oakland Coliseum underwent renovation. Also, the city or the county?
So that means you are from Miami or Denver, the only 4 sport, two Super Bowl winners in the NFL. Unless you are untruthful or inaccurate....
Very good! The latter is applicable (and DON'T insinuate I'm a KC Sheffs fan, I don't think there are much worse insults). Obviously, if I were from Miami, I would not be communicating in intelligent, complete sentences.
Let's take a look.
Baseball: St. Louis has averaged in the top 5 in baseball attendance the past 5 years and beyond. Florida has averaged 29th and Colorado 19th out of 30 teams.
I will be the first to tell you, as a CO Native, that the majority of the citizens run, camp, mountain bike, hunt, fish, hang glide, and participate in a vast array of other outdoor activities because we have a beautiful mountain range 40 miles to the west. We are an active and healthy state. I was happy AND shocked when we landed an MLB franchise because everyone said "we're too busy and active in the summer to sit on our @sses for three hours and watch a very tedious and humrdum game." Given that, I don't care if the Rockies lose every game, it's an affordable, fun way to sample some of the 100 different brews we have at Coors Field and enjoy a pleasant, dry summer day.
St. Louis is a great baseball town. I said that earlier. Take pride in that. Your ticket prices are outlandish for baseball, but that's simply the factor of the economic principle of supply and demand. I imagine KC Royals tickets are probably $5.00 or free, given their support .
NHL: Prior to the lockout and sale of the team, giving away the team's best players, the Blues averaged top 5 in the league in hockey attendance, more than doubling the rankings of Colorado and Florida, who weren't in the same stratosphere as the Blues in attendance.
The Florida Panthers (or the NY Islanders) will be in Kansas City in one year. They are bankrupt and on their way out of Miami, which is really a one-sport town in terms of support (Fins). I hate the Sheffs, but KC is actually a pretty cool city and the new arena is very nice. I played some hockey growing up and, when Denver did not have a team, I was actually a Blues and PHI Flyers fan. I liked Blues before I was transferred here and, as I stated earlier, I want them to succeed and be the great franchise that I used to watch on ESPN in Denver. They do give the fans the best deal for ticket prices, and attendance is going up. The Free Food Game (today) is a brilliant promotional idea, given the prodigious appetites and average girth of the locals. And no, other than class act Joe Sakic I don't really care about the Avalanche. I'm glad Denver won 2 Cups, but I'm not a real hardcore fan.
Football: The Dolphins started play in 1966. The Broncos started play in 1960. The St. Louis Rams began play in 1995. Quite a difference. Miami draws fans from all over the huge state of Florida. Denver is the only professional NFL team in all of Colorado. It borders 7 states, 6 of which do not have NFL teams. At only 8 home games per year, people can and do come from far and wide to see them play. Oh, and that 7th bordering state went many decades without a team and they even had blackouts during their Super Bowl run this past year, the Arizona Cardinals. St. Louisans know all too well that Bill Bidwill has been the worst owner in sports over the past several decades. Took a few decades for them to not play in a outdated college stadium. The Rams despite much greater competition for regional fandom than either of those two NFL teams, and despite the previous lack of team, lack of quality ownership under Bidwill, the team sold out all of its games almost 70k per game for its first dozen or so seasons. Remarkable.
OK dude, a few comments:
1) You're partially right, Denver gets a lot of fans from Wyoming, Idaho, Nebraska, and western Kansas (the non-Sheffs people). However, Utah is actually more 49ers than Broncos (Steve Young factor). Do you know what the most popular NFL team in New Mexico, Oklahoma and Arizona is? DALLAS! Look it up if you don't believe me.
2) I know Bidwell screwed STL, but he is nowhere near the echelon of Al "I'll Sue Your @ss!" Davis, Jerry Jones, Art Modell et.al. in terms of worse owner. I was totally going for AZ in the Super Bowl and wish those folks could experience some Kurt Warner magic like STL did in 2000.
Given that, the last Rams game I went to was 12/20/07, the Thursday night joke against Pittsburgh. I wore my Rams hat and was surrounded by PIT fans, and quite frankly felt threatened at a HOME game for the first time in my life. The outcome did not help much either.
As I stated earlier, I don't want the Rams to leave STL (even though I am later this year), but they have a LOT of work to do to reacquire respectabililty in the NFL. Although I did enjoy it when they beat Dallas last year!
The Miami MLS soccer team folded long ago do to lack of fan support and Colorado's ranks in the bottom couple of MLS currently despite the brand new facility.
Yeah, OK. I know soccer is sacred in STL. The Rapids sell out one game a year - July 4th, for the unlimited taligating 30 minute fireworks display. I don't know anything about soccer, but I think it's a very interesting and highly competitive sport.
That was at Mile High Stadium. The new facility was built where it is (Commerce City, our socioeconomic equivalent of North STL City or East STL) to target a large Hispanic (the big soccer fans) demographic.
BTW, when is soccer-crazy STL getting a pro franchise here? I vaguely remember the Steamers and Storm. Isn't Checketts trying to get one here?
When is the last time either of those places hosted the NCAA men's Final Four as St. Louis did a couple of years ago? The womens final four is in St. Louis this year. The NCAA wrestling championships call St. Louis home and have had record attendance. The college hockey Frozen Four came to town with record attendance once again within past couple of years. More than 20k fans attended the mid-major MVC tourney championship for a couple of years in a row in the past couple of years, once again in St. Louis.
I think the NCAA event hosting is about equal between DEN and STL. I've been to the Frozen Four in both cities and had a great time.
BMW Golf Championships anyone? Yep in St. Louis last year.
We had the International at Castle Pines and an LPGA event at Cherry Hills, but I quote the great George Carlin - "watching golf is like watching flies f***."
St. Louis Aces tennis? The Williams sisters, Bryan brothers, Anna Kournakova, even Pete Sampras has played there in Forest Park in the past few years.
I saw Anna Kournakova play Monica Seles at the University of Denver in 2002 in a charity match and loved every time Anna had to bend over to pick up a ball! BTW Forest Park, Tower Grove Park and Creve Coeur Park are three of the nicest parks I've ever ran in. You DO take care of your parks here (it sure as hell doesn't go to road maintenance!).
NCAA lacrosse out in Fenton, check.
Denver has TWO PROFESSIONAL lacrosse teams, the Colorado Mammoth (indoor NLL) and the Denver Outlaws (outdoor MLL). Lacrosse is to DEN and soccer is to STL. I'm glad you mentioned that there is some lacrosse in STL, I am a fan and will check that. Thanks.
and on and on....so it goes....
Bottom Line:
STL - vastly superior in baseball, soccer (when it gets a franchise again, and it will), bowling and washers,; superior in pro hockey, dead even in collegiate events.
DEN - vastly superior in football, basketball, lacrosse, mountain biking, collegiate hockey, and skiing . And I WAS at the protest to save Hidden Valley last year!
STL - vastly superior in baseball, soccer (when it gets a franchise again, and it will), bowling and washers,; superior in pro hockey, dead even in collegiate events.
DEN - vastly superior in football, basketball, lacrosse, mountain biking, collegiate hockey, and skiing . And I WAS at the protest to save Hidden Valley last year!
Is that a fair assessment?
In a word no. Why? Because superior how? Attendance? Level of play? at what level in level of play? etc...Lax has been popular in St. Louis since the mid-1990's and many local top players play at elite lax schools out East. Neither St. Louis nor Denver has much history in the sport.
St. Louis is geographically challenged in terms of skiing and mountains. And, I'd argue that Denver isn't superior in skiing because you have to go outside of Denver to the mountains to ski. Denver isn't located in the mountains as you well know. However, proximity within reasonable drive, sure.
This isn't a contest as to which is better. You must be one of those people who post in the this city vs this one threads. No thanks, not interested. I'm pretty secure with the places of which I've spent time, St. Louis included to be objective and respectful, pros and cons of my thoughts.
St. Louis is big sports town, bigger than most, and for its size arguably the biggest/most passionate, at all levels.
As soon as the Colorado Buffaloes want to catch up to Mizzou in football...let me know. See, we can play 4th grader on the play ground all you wish, and you'll lose, and you'll lose big.
Or people can appreciate both places. If you do not like St. Louis, leave. You'd probably be doing yourself and everyone around you a favor, considering your insufferable posts regarding the area. We all like St. Louis just fine or we wouldn't be in this forum. It has its pros in cons just as every other metro area, Denver included.
Interesting Moniker - you're not a San Diego Chargers fan, are you?
No, I'm not. I don't dislike the Chargers, but I am not a fan of their team. I do like the powder Blue uniforms and I do prefer their 1980's gold pant with lightning bolts over the white ones. I also enjoy San Diego as an area. But no, I'm not a Chargers fan.
I've lived a lot of places in my life, and I'm a St. Louis Rams fan and Green Bay Packers fan. I used to be a St. Louis football Cardinal fan when they had a team.
^^Stanley Kroenke owns the Denver Nuggets. He's from Columbia, Missouri and does business heavy in St. Louis. Don't get so cocky my boy.
Stan Kroenke owns the Denver Nuggetts, the Pepsi Center, the Colorado Avalanche, the entire Colorado Rapids soccer facility and all real estate development near there. He also owns a stake in English Premier League soccer team Arsenal. He is also 40% owner of the St. Louis Rams football team. League rules prohibit him from buying the team from Chip and Lucia Rosenbloom, son and daughter of recently passed away Georgia Frontiere. The league rules, which are silly, say that as long as Kroenke owns any sports team in the 4 major sports in any city, he cannot also be majority owner of the Rams. Obviously one's next thought is, who cares? What does owning the Colorado Avalanche NHL team have to do with owning the St. Louis Rams? And the correct answer is nothing, no conflict of interest, but for now that's the silly league rule as it stands.
Kroenke also owns a lot of real estate, in particular retail shopping areas, in many locales, including Colorado. He also has a home in and frequents Steamboat Springs Colorado. He spends his time between St. Louis and Colorado. He is an active owner of his teams, hands on, but extremely media silent and quiet. He does not like the spotlight, but he's well received by most around him.
1) I'm well aware of Dallas Cowboy National fandom as well as other teams, and the history of why etc...However as you so kindly pointed out, the Denver Broncos have a lot of fans from neighboring states as well as their own metro area. St. Louis had terrible ownership, the team left town, and when it came back, many fans spent a long time cheering for neighboring regional teams. The history of the Packers, Bears, etc...is storied. As you well know, the Chiefs have a big strong following etc...all within a few hours away. Denver does not have to compete as much for fandom. And, the Broncos have had consistently solid ownership under PB.
2) Don't insult any St. Louis person with the Bidwill not the worst owner. Sterling for the L.A. Clippers is in that category and a few others. That's it. I'm talking incompetent. Stories abound when the Cardinals football was good, he'd lie in contracts and see if you'd catch it when signing regarding money. Ask Mel Gray. Ask other players about having to go the local mall to buy cleats because you only get one pair per season, and socks too. I kid you not. The Arizona Cardinals are more competitive now because Bidwill's son is now running the team.
3) You also should know that the Steelers, more than any other NFL team, including GB, Dallas, etc...and a few others that are close, have the largest National following. Of course they will bring a lot of fans. And, if they are willing to pay hundreds of dollars for tix, last game of year, when Rams are having a terrible season, you'll see Steeler fans. You would also see that anywhere else too. The Steelers absolutely took over the Redskins home game this year when the Redskins were actually competitive and decent. I am talking the Washington Redskins, one of the strongest, largest, most loyal NFL followings in the league. Wow.
4) This is the NFL as in Not for long League. Baltimore was TERRIBLE the season before last. And they were very close to the Super Bowl last year. You can turn an NFL team around within a couple of years. Rosenbloom has no plans to sell in the short term. In the long term he will only sell to someone who will keep the team in St. Louis. The Rams are not nor will they be going anywhere else. Any speculation otherwise is pure fallacy and fantasy. That's like me saying the Broncos are moving to Wyoming. Not gonna happen. Considering the new management, and moves so far, the Rams will be arguably .500 level club next season, middle of the pack or playoff contention in the parity league that is the NFL. There also will be #20 million of dome renovations complete before the start of next season.
5) St. Louis is in the final 3 for one expansion spot for MLS. Jeff Cooper is the leader behind it, and you can go to St. Louis Soccer United's website for more details....getting a team is when and not if....Anheuser-Busch Inbev announced last week they are supporting the local effort in any way possible. A-B Inbev is one of the league's largest sponsors. The new pro womens league starts their season in April with current local St. Louisan and National team captain Lori Chalupny, Hope Solo, Kerri Hanks, the All American from Notre Dame and others on the team.
6) St. Louis vs Denver in NCAA hosting isn't in the same stratosphere. In fact St. Louis has been designated one of 6 cities Nationally to be an NCAA Championship City. Google for more details.
7) St. Louis Cardinal baseball ticket prices are amongst the highest in baseball. As you said, supply and demand, and supply isn't going down any time soon for a wide variety or reasons. The team wins a lot, 2nd winningest franchise in baseball history next to the Yankees. It's winning championships every other decade throughout the decade since the 1800's. For a long time St. Louis was the Southern most and Western most baseball team and its flagship radio station reached 48 states, and was anchored by two Hall of Fame Broadcasters for over 50 years in Haray Caray and Jack Buck. Fandom has also been passed down over generations. People come far and wide to see their Cardinals. The current owners are price gouging for tix and concessions, that is correct. And, imo the new stadium has been a disappointment in terms of expectation...ok yes, but nothing great or special.
8) As stated Blues current ownership is very good at PR, marketing, and working the media and fans with positive pub, deals etc...to take away from the fact that they inherited a mess from previous ownership, and it is a slow process to success on the ice once again. As I stated before, the Blues have the most die hard passionate local fans in town, and that includes the Cardinals of which many fans can of course give Blues fans a run for their money...and there are more baseball fans locally, regionally, nationally than hockey of course.
Instead of being that bitter transplant, negative about everything in the new place, try getting out and seeing and doing all that there is out there, and try posting fact vs fiction. As you even stated, despite the nothing to do in St. Louis comments, you've done some of the things there are to do, and I'm willing to bet you haven't even touched the surface yet. You are likely missing out on many local opportunities because you don't know how and where they are and instead of seeking them out, you sit on your computer and complain non have come up and smacked you in the face.
Stan Kroenke owns the Denver Nuggetts, the Pepsi Center, the Colorado Avalanche, the entire Colorado Rapids soccer facility and all real estate development near there. He also owns a stake in English Premier League soccer team Arsenal. He is also 40% owner of the St. Louis Rams football team. League rules prohibit him from buying the team from Chip and Lucia Rosenbloom, son and daughter of recently passed away Georgia Frontiere. The league rules, which are silly, say that as long as Kroenke owns any sports team in the 4 major sports in any city, he cannot also be majority owner of the Rams. Obviously one's next thought is, who cares? What does owning the Colorado Avalanche NHL team have to do with owning the St. Louis Rams? And the correct answer is nothing, no conflict of interest, but for now that's the silly league rule as it stands.
Kroenke also owns a lot of real estate, in particular retail shopping areas, in many locales, including Colorado. He also has a home in and frequents Steamboat Springs Colorado. He spends his time between St. Louis and Colorado. He is an active owner of his teams, hands on, but extremely media silent and quiet. He does not like the spotlight, but he's well received by most around him.
um thanks? I kind of found all that out too when I found out he owned the nuggets.
This is great banter - I love stirring the pot with the reactionary locals. After I make my money, complete my contract and split, I'm gonna miss this.
1) Portland, OR
2) St. Louis, MO
3) New Orleans, LA
4) Detroit, MI
5) Cleveland, OH
Notice that number (2) is the only one without an NBA team, the original subject matter of this thread. Do you really want an NBA team here and be considered along with these cities?
Good luck to those Rams. You guys want Jay Cutler? He can back up Marc Bulger when he is out with the annual concussion.
Peace!
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Here Fishy Fishy
Very good! The latter is applicable (and DON'T insinuate I'm a KC Sheffs fan, I don't think there are much worse insults). Obviously, if I were from Miami, I would not be communicating in intelligent, complete sentences. 
I will be the first to tell you, as a CO Native, that the majority of the citizens run, camp, mountain bike, hunt, fish, hang glide, and participate in a vast array of other outdoor activities because we have a beautiful mountain range 40 miles to the west. We are an active and healthy state. I was happy AND shocked when we landed an MLB franchise because everyone said "we're too busy and active in the summer to sit on our @sses for three hours and watch a very tedious and humrdum game." Given that, I don't care if the Rockies lose every game, it's an affordable, fun way to sample some of the 100 different brews we have at Coors Field and enjoy a pleasant, dry summer day.
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