Family friendly, quiet, affordable - The budget version of Clayton? (St. Louis: rent, homes)

[flynavyj]

I rented a 2 Bd 2 Ba apartment in 63141 for a year, loved the area but at the time finding a home to purchase over there was going to be rough...I saw a few in my general price range, but they were going to require thousands in improvements to really be livable.

63146 is actually unincorporated St. Louis County. It's in the Parkway school district (at least most of it is). The homes there are normally more expensive than being in dedicated maryland heights (most of which is in Pattonville if memory serves me right) but it's less expensive than Creve Coeur. Once again, this is all tied to the school districts, so it'd make sense to be inbetween the two in pricing, luckily since the economy has "tanked" i've seen some pretty decent deals in the 63146 zip, and almost wish I'd waited longer to purchase. A home I used to LOVE came on the market a year after I moved, didn't sell, and has finally disappeared off the realestate websites recently, it sat on an acre or so on Ross, older home, unique design, level yard, and I think the price had dropped into the $150's...which was totally within my desired price range, but unfortunately I already had a house when I saw it.

[topospace]

Originally Posted by Chicago76

I don't know much about the housing stock outside of the 270 belt, but here are some school numbers for reference from STL mag:

Avg ACTs:
-Clayton and Ladue @ 26
-Kirkwood and Lafayette @ 25
-Parkway C and W @ 24, but Parkway schools make 100% of their kids take the ACT, so apples to apples, they're probably 25 or so also.
-Eureka, Fox, Lindbergh, Marquette, Valley Park @ 24. PW S at 23, but again, comparing similarly, probably also @ 24.
-Brentwood, Rockwood Summit, Seckman, Timberland, and Webster Groves at 23. PW N adj up 1 to 23 also.

I'm stopping there, because you've got to draw the line somewhere I guess. ACT scores aren't everything, but they're a starting point. Note that avg. scores will be driven somewhat by the number of kids taking the test, so a place like Brentwood (88% of kids averaging at 23) is equal or better than a school like Fox (69% of kids averaging a 24).

FWIW, Maryland Heights (Pattonville) is in the next group of 8 or so schools at a score of 22, which happens to be the median score for suburban high schools surveyed (45 or so of them). Median for a surburban high school definitely puts it into the good category overall when you compare it to most rural and urban schools. I'll leave it to you to figure out if its good enough, considering everything else that goes into a school beyond test scores.

If you're looking for safe+older home+good schools, one school not included on the survey that would be up there is Edwardsville in Metro East. They have an older town center too w/ some older homes at a good price. If you can find something like this for $315K, then there should be places around that fit your needs at your price: 612 W High St, Edwardsville, IL 62025 MLS# 3010934 - Zillow

It's not a completely awful commute for either of you too.

Incorrect. The average score can only be significantly changed when there is a very small sample of students (Unless you're directly comparing one school with all students taking the test vs a school with only college bound students taking it. Then the average could be skewed for reasons other than the number taking the ACT. But this was only one school according to you.) In this case, there are hundreds or thousands of students so the average scores are not influenced by the number taking the test. The second part about Brentwood being better than Fox is even more incorrect.

Sorry for being off topic, but it drives me nuts when I see college graduates butchering the most basic of statistical principles. Rant over.

[Dawn10am]

If you want something architecturally similar to Clayton but without the Clayton price tag, most of the inner suburbs would do. Check out U City, Brentwood, and Maplewood. All very established and seem to be pretty neighborly, and all are in the exact center of the the metro area.

[Chicago76]

Originally Posted by topospace

Incorrect. The average score can only be significantly changed when there is a very small sample of students (Unless you're directly comparing one school with all students taking the test vs a school with only college bound students taking it. Then the average could be skewed for reasons other than the number taking the ACT. But this was only one school according to you.) In this case, there are hundreds or thousands of students so the average scores are not influenced by the number taking the test. The second part about Brentwood being better than Fox is even more incorrect.

Sorry for being off topic, but it drives me nuts when I see college graduates butchering the most basic of statistical principles. Rant over.

Nope. What you're suggesting only holds true if the sample is random. At a given high school those taking college admissions tests is anything but random. The bottom 30% of a school w/ a 70% college test taking rate will likely score similarly to the bottom 10% of a school w/ a 90% college test taking rate, assuming relatively similar socioeconomics.

Two schools w/ 10 seniors. A random sample of 7 from both yields the following scores: 29, 27, 26, 24, 22, 20, 20. School A has only 7 kids taking the test, so their sample isn't a sample, but the entire pop. School B has two more kids that are going to college and who score 21 (23.3 avg rounded to 23) or 20 (23.1 avg to 23).

Chances are, school B's has an academically superior student body (if testing = academic quality), when you compare the top 10% of both, the 4th 10% of both, the 9th decile of both, etc.

The only reason it wouldn't is if its reasonable to assume that a good portion of the non-test taking pop in school A would score better than the bottom end of the test taking pop...if they decided to go to college. Some of that group may in fact score better, but generally they won't. Why? Because the sample isn't random. They likely have weaker grades and there is a strong correlation between grades and test scores. Maybe one would have had a 20-21, another a 18-19 to round out the first 90%.

Regardless, testing is only one metric. If a school can produce an avg of 23 with far less favorable socioeconomic advantages than a school that produces an avg of 24, then all else equal, I'd rather have my kid at the school with lower scores. They're getting more from less in terms of parental support, but my parental support would be the same if my kid went to either school.

i don't have a dog in the hunt. I didn't go to HS here even. If you say Fox is better than Brentwood, I have no reason to doubt you. All I do know (if test scores are a reasonably proxy for quality) is that both are good schools and there isn't a lot of difference between either.

Rant over.

[aragx6]

Originally Posted by Dawn10am

If you want something architecturally similar to Clayton but without the Clayton price tag, most of the inner suburbs would do. Check out U City, Brentwood, and Maplewood. All very established and seem to be pretty neighborly, and all are in the exact center of the the metro area.

If it were me, given schools not really being a significant factor at this point, the above is where I would look first. Add in Richmond Heights.

[march13]

Originally Posted by aragx6

If it were me, given schools not really being a significant factor at this point, the above is where I would look first. Add in Richmond Heights.

Wow that Richmond Heights/Maplewood area is extremely convenient for both work commutes, and amazingly exactly at that 40 minute mark to western Saint Charles County , now to just find something affordable. The homes seem pretty close to one another, hopefully I can find a neighborhood with a little bit more elbow room in this area. So how are the schools?

[Chicago76]

Originally Posted by march13

Wow that Richmond Heights/Maplewood area is extremely convenient for both work commutes, and amazingly exactly at that 40 minute mark to western Saint Charles County , now to just find something affordable. The homes seem pretty close to one another, hopefully I can find a neighborhood with a little bit more elbow room in this area. So how are the schools?

Not particularly great, although to be fair, I've heard the school is improving and has always been better at the lower levels, which is all you may care about now anyway.

FWIW, out of roughly 300 elementary schools, M-RH Elem ranked:

90th in Communication for % of kids scoring proficient or advanced
20th in Comm. for % of kids scoring advanced
66th in Math for % of kids scoring prof. or advanced
39th in Math for % of kids scoring as advanced

It would appear they have a healthy group of high achievers and a solid group of students performing at grade level.

Jr High and HS might be another matter, but with the way Maplewood is trending, the improvement at the lower levels may rise to the top as well.

[aragx6]

^This is a pretty fair assessment. MRH doesn't have the best reputation of St. Louis metro schools (nor anywhere near the worst), but it's also seemed to me a place where kids with a predisposition to succeed seemed more than capable of doing so. Even at the high school level they have a large selection of AP classes. Both MRH and University City suffer from some socioeconmic disadvantages that districts like Clayton, Parkway etc. just really don't have.

Maybe not quite the charm of Clayton, but a nice enough looking house on what appears to be a fairly large lot: Beautifully Updated House for Rent

I suspect you'd find a larger number of homes to buy as opposed to rent -- there's generally not a ton of single-family houses on the market.

[Chicago76]

^ Yeah. I was surprised they were doing as well as they were when I looked at the data. You always hear that the schools are no good...until recently when you hear the schools have improved some. Comparison between MRH Elem, vs. Kirkwood Elem. (Tillman) vs. Clayton Elem (Tillman):

Comm % of students grading out as either Proficient or Advanced: 58.5% vs. 72.4% vs. 66.1%.
Comm. % Advanced: 35.4% vs. 32.9% vs. 27.1%

Math % Proficient or Advanced: 65.6% vs 64.5% vs. 61.9%.
Math % Advanced: 23.2% vs. 11.8% vs. 20.6%

At least at the lower level on a standardized testing basis, MRH appears to be comparable to the lowest performing Clayton elementary (out of 3) and also the second lowest performing Kirkwood Elem (out of 5).

[march13]

Originally Posted by aragx6

^This is a pretty fair assessment. MRH doesn't have the best reputation of St. Louis metro schools (nor anywhere near the worst), but it's also seemed to me a place where kids with a predisposition to succeed seemed more than capable of doing so. Even at the high school level they have a large selection of AP classes. Both MRH and University City suffer from some socioeconmic disadvantages that districts like Clayton, Parkway etc. just really don't have.

Maybe not quite the charm of Clayton, but a nice enough looking house on what appears to be a fairly large lot: Beautifully Updated House for Rent

I suspect you'd find a larger number of homes to buy as opposed to rent -- there's generally not a ton of single-family houses on the market.

I might try that padmapper app, and thanks for the house link. I found that one last night! It does seem to be in a little less than ideal condition for us, and I can't see the back yard. I found a couple other contenders last night as well:

This one has the look I was going for, wonder how the back yard is? Looks like a SFH to me although they call it an apartment in the listing?

826 Pennsylvania-1st(includes heat, 3+ Bdr's, 2 baths, hdw flrs) (http://stlouis.craigslist.org/apa/2891163431.html - broken link)

This one is awesome! Love the kitchen, living areas, sunroom overlooking back yard, and bonus area in basement. Not sure about those bedroom ceilings though....but I guess this is par for the course with this home style in this area, in my price range? I bet it's sweltering in the summer. Hmm...

St. Louis Hills Addition (http://stlouis.craigslist.org/apa/2867653327.html - broken link)