CWE or Downtown for couple with no kids, working in downtown (St. Louis: 2013, apartments)

[DachsieLover]

Hello!

My husband and I will be relocating to St. Louis in about a month. I am from Mid-MO and went to college in SW MO, so have spent a bit of time in St. Louis and love the city and people (mostly went to Cards games, but also frequently visited friends living in downtown and CWE during 2002-2008). Have been living in Denver for the past 6 years. I have combed through this forum and read all that I can about the area, but have some questions since I seem to be receiving quite conflicting opinions from friends and our realtor.

Some background:
I am 30, husband is 38. I work from home and my husband will be working downtown. Currently, we live in an area a little over a mile from the center of downtown Denver. Our area could best be described as transitional and a bit gritty, with warehouses and some occasional homeless and shady characters. We like it, but want something in St. Louis that is a bit more walkable, most notably near a grocery store and access to the Metro.

Due to my work situation, I'd like to be somewhere that I can easily walk out and grab coffee or lunch, with some hustle and bustle so I don't feel isolated. Also, since I won't be meeting people in an office, I'd like to live in a building or community where I could potentially make some friends. My husband may be working some strange hours (weekend, late evening), so would prefer to be as close as possible to his work. We currently share a car and plan on keeping it that way.

We like urban living but are not into partying/clubbing. Casual dining, theater, sporting events and outdoor activities are more our speed. Also have two small dogs who we have to consider. They don't need much in the way of exercise, but we do take them for short walks regularly. No kids. We will likely be spending many weekends with family/friends in the country, so are looking for a neighborhood we can enjoy living in during the week and that has most everything we need.

SO, surprise surprise - we are considering CWE or downtown. I have read/heard some not so great things about downtown, but coming from a transitional neighborhood ourselves, I think we might like it. Plus it seems very walkable (if in the right location) and has amenities that we don't have currently, even being on the outskirts of downtown Denver (like grocery).

Realtor is pushing CWE and has not much good to say about downtown (but also admits to not ever going there except for Cards games). The times I've been to CWE I've loved it. I think it's hard not to if you like urban living. The park is a major draw, but places are more expensive and I fear we'd have to settle for a home not as close to the action or Metro. We are very active but my husband would not enjoy hiking or biking miles to get to the Metro, especially at night. He is not a very good "commuter."

Which would you recommend for our lifestyle? Has anyone lived in both places that may have insight or suggestions? Have either area changed much from 2008 to now? What is the noise level like in the evenings? How well are the loft condo units insulated? I have Celiac disease - I'm guessing both have a good variety of gluten-free options? What about organic foods/farmer's markets? Is there adequate green space downtown for dogs?

Price range: We'd like to buy but would consider renting if we couldn't find the right property. Price range is $250K or lower and would like to keep HOA fees $250 or less for 2 bed, 2 bath (or 1.5 bath). Need one parking space and dog-friendly. If we love it, we plan pay off and keep as our "city residence" when we eventually move out to the country. Could be many years away, but never hurts to look at the big picture.

We will be visiting next week, so hopefully will have a better handle on everything.

Thanks in advance, we're really looking forward to moving to your fine city!

[uiscebeatha]

Welcome! I'm a little biased; I've lived downtown for over 4 years and I've really enjoyed it. My fiancee & I recently bought a condo in the Old Post Office district (after renting elsewhere downtown for 3.5 yrs) for roughly the price range you're targeting. Love it so far. There's a full service grocery store in the immediate area, dozens of restaurants, several coffee shops, a movie theater, etc., as well as a recently renovated dog park. Three buildings in the area (Chemical Building, Arcade-Wright building, Roberts Tower) just got financing for renovations & conversions into apartments, so I'm looking forward to those bringing a lot more hustle and/or bustle into downtown too. I'm afraid your realtor is significantly uninformed.

As far as noise levels, it depends on the building. The ones facing Washington Ave. will have more noise than those that don't. Walls/insulation vary too. In my old building, I had thin walls and very noisy neighbors, which honestly, was quite unpleasant at times. In the new building, I barely hear anything at all.

It looks like the Syndicate building is having an open house soon that might coincide with your visit: Lofts In The 'Lou: Syndicate Summer Open House Schedule

I found the CWE to be a little pricier when we were looking to buy, and some of the buildings/floorplans looked a little dated, but otherwise it's a very nice area. I'm sure others on this forum would know more about it than I do though.

Good luck!

[stlcitygirl]

You will be happy with downtown or the CWE, if I worked downtown I would probably choose that. Downtown does have Culinaria, which would be your main grocer. The closest farmers market is Soulard Farmers Market,one the oldest farmers market in the USA, its open Wed-Sat year round, a very easy bike ride from downtown.

I will say that the CWE is my favorite, but pricey, which is the sole reason we don't live there now.

[NewStLouisan]

I actually also moved from Denver to St. Louis around six months ago, after living in Denver for 6 years! Sounds like you lived near the La Quinta Inn near downtown Denver?

I'm not very familiar with downtown St. Louis, but can absolutely vouch for CWE (where I live). It's extremely walkable, you'll be walking distance to one of at least two grocery stores, and a 15-20 minute walk to the MetroLink station, which will take you to Downtown. A quick view on Zillow suggests there are a good number of homes available within your budget.

[DachsieLover]

NewStLouisan - We are over in the River North area nearing Curtis Park/Five Points. Directly behind our condo is the end bit of that huge Coors Field parking lot. I gather you like St. Louis pretty well? I didn't get too attached to Denver, but there are things I will miss .

uiscebeatha - thanks for the info about the Syndicate. I think we should be able to get to that open house! I have a feeling those HOA dues might be kinda steep, but would still be good to check out.

[uiscebeatha]

Yeah, HOA fees for a 2bd/2ba there run between $300-350.

[billiken]

I lived in STL for 7 years (lived in CWE for some time and spent lots of time downtown both for work and fun), and I've been in Denver for a little over a year (spent a year downtown, and just moved to Congress Park). I was going to guess that you lived in Five Points based on your description of your current area

Given the fact that you're fairly used to the homeless element, I don't think downtown would be too bad for you. The heart of downtown STL is less transitional than River North. I personally like the atmosphere of CWE better. It just feels more neighborhood-like to me. The fact that one of you works downtown would be a huge driver to settle in that area though. Downtown living is definitely centered along Washington Avenue, with lots of bars on the street level. For me, it'd be too loud (just like I wouldn't want to live on Maryland & Euclid in CWE--and I did not particularly enjoy downtown Denver due to noise issues and the younger partying crowd). I also prefer more traditional apartments to lofts--if you have a strong preference either way, that might be a guiding decision. Gluten-free doesn't have the following in STL that it has in Denver, I'd say--I immediately noticed that a greater number of restaurants cater to dietary restrictions more in Denver, whether it be vegetarian, gluten free, etc. If I remember correctly, there's a small dog park downtown.

[DachsieLover]

billiken - Thanks for the input! What sort of differences do you notice between Downtown Denver and Downtown St. Louis, specifically in terms of safety, cleanliness and homeless presence?

I really think we are leaning toward downtown since husband will be working there and seems like everything we would need for day-to-day living would be there. Probably near the Old Post Office area. Since I can work from home it just makes more sense to be closer to his workplace.

But, even just this evening, we had two friends strongly caution us against the decision to live downtown. I think they are mainly saying it's not safe. However, while living in Denver in several nice, affluent neighborhoods, I've had my car broken into twice, house broken into twice, purse stolen, storage unit robbed and even found a man in my garage! And I'm a super cautious, very aware person. Despite all of this, I wouldn't say Denver is unsafe, but just chalk it up to urban living. Are these the "safety" issues most are referring to when discussing living in downtown St. Louis, or are the problems more severe? Clearly, I don't want to put myself at risk of a violent crime, but I highly doubt that's the case if I stay in the right area. I've read through the crime thread on here, but after talking to people that live or have lived there and hearing their negativity, I'm starting to become concerned. Guess I just need to drown out the noise

[glamatomic]

Although I've never lived downtown, I worked downtown for a couple of years and used to work some odd shifts which often had me walking a couple of blocks to my car at night. I never felt threatened or unsafe. You had the odd drunken hooligans hanging about but I never personally encountered anything more sinister than in any other 'downtown' area throughout the world.

I did have my car broken into a couple of times, while parked downtown. But like you, I just chalk that up to being downtown. I've had far worse things happen to me in other cities than that!

There are parts of downtown which are 'seedier' than others, but for the most part, progress is constantly being made to make downtown STL an even more desirable location to live. I really don't think you're going to encounter any problems

Good luck to you, and I hope you love St. Louis!

[billiken]

My husband and I both remark all the time that the homeless population seems far greater in Denver. The area near the shelters on 20th is astonishing.

In terms of crime--STL has the obvious overall crime reputation, but I have no idea what the statistics are between downtown areas. We've witnessed crime problems or had friends experience problems in both areas--all vehicle related (slashed tires, smashed windows, even stolen cars). Crime would certainly not be a reason to deter me from downtown in either area, though. None of my friends have left downtown living for crime-related reasons, either.

Downtown Denver is cleaner, and more importantly feels a lot more developed than Downtown STL. That's the biggest difference, in my opinion. Denver's downtown just feels more alive--more people out and about around lunch time, after work, etc. STL's downtown is centered around Washington Avenue, while Denver has 16th St (which is ehh in my opinion but none the less developed for over a mile), but also has plenty going on along every street in LoDo. All the surrounding areas are developing or developed in Denver too (Ballpark/Five Points, Highlands, Capitol Hill), while STL is interesting--it's a little bit of an island. Things get sketchiest heading east of the river and a few blocks north of Wash Ave, the western half of downtown is pretty bleak, and the southern half is fairly industrial until you get to Soulard/Lafayette Square The fact that downtown STL has a great full service grocery store is a huge help, though. And, I haven't been back downtown to check out the most recent developments on Wash Ave.