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You're correct about the St. Louis thing. Here is a link to the latest study of dialect that shows this as well. As you can see on the map you have to go about 70 miles due south of St. Louis to hit the start of Southern dialect. University of PA has a good map too, but it's a bit dated. As I said the closest where the south starts is somewhere in the middle of Madison County and the map is fairly close to that.
As much as that map is very detailed and it agrees with me, I did notice some inaccuracies.
Whoever made it says that father and bother do not merge in New York. They do. It is in Boston where they are distinct.
It also has Long O backing not present in New York and Boston which is ridiculous because they are well known for that. In fact it has long O backing not present in New England at all completely bypassing it and going to Canada.
Last edited by EddieOlSkool; 07-21-2016 at 12:23 PM..
As much as that map is very detailed and it agrees with me, I did notice some inaccuracies.
Whoever made it says that father and bother do not merge in New York. They do. It is in Boston where they are distinct.
It also has Long O backing not present in New York and Boston which is ridiculous because they are well known for that. In fact it has long O backing not present in New England at all completely bypassing it and going to Canada.
It's still an ongoing study though I believe though so it could change. However with the University of PA map, and this map it confirms MO is about 25 percent southern. That's not so say in the transition zone you won't hear a southern or southern influenced accent, but it's not quite the norm as it is in the southern quarter of the state where it is more dominate.
Here is the older 1997 map that most think is pretty reputable too, but in far eastern MO they have the line a bit too far south though IMO because the southern dialect starts about 10-20 miles north of that.
It's still an ongoing study though I believe though so it could change. However with the University of PA map, and this map it confirms MO is about 25 percent southern. That's not so say in the transition zone you won't hear a southern or southern influenced accent, but it's not quite the norm as it is in the southern quarter of the state where it is more dominate.
Here is the older 1997 map that most think is pretty reputable too, but in far eastern MO they have the line a bit too far south though IMO because the southern dialect starts about 10-20 miles north of that.
So much for Peter1948's claims that St. Louis has a Southern accent. Louisville is confirmed in both maps to speak the Southern dialect. Yet obviously as a one man army he knows better than all of us combined
So much for Peter1948's claims that St. Louis has a Southern accent. Louisville is confirmed in both maps to speak the Southern dialect. Yet obviously as a one man army he knows better than all of us combined
Yep, totally agree. Louisville is near the edge though so I'd expect you would hear some non southern accents as well, just like north of there in the transition zone you will still hear a few naturally too.
In general though the southern accent is declining. I'm sure it's less now than back in 1997 as young people grow up and the old timers die out who had the accent.
Last edited by MOforthewin; 07-21-2016 at 03:37 PM..
So much for Peter1948's claims that St. Louis has a Southern accent. Louisville is confirmed in both maps to speak the Southern dialect. Yet obviously as a one man army he knows better than all of us combined
Again...twisting words. STL has MOSTLY a midwest accent. But there are plenty of southern accents there! I'd say 20% easy. And I have heard them all over the metro. My most frequent encounters? Gas stations and fast food. Also the fact that you bring up "all of us" makes me very wary you use another login and actually respond to yourself.
In almost every single map, Louisville is on the edge. Louisville does not even say "y'all" There is no more obvious evidence of Louisville's hybrid identity than this! Louisville is the only place where they say "you all"
And what's more? STL has lots of oddities and shares some words with the south! Louisville is hybrid city. STL is mostly midwest, with a hint of south. That's ok! Being southern is better as the south is growing! Again, can you read sir? STL is MIDWESTERN! We agree. But it has some southern characteristics. This is why the OP created this thread.
Even Louisville's BOOMING tourism and convention business, doing great before around 3000 hotel room open up soon, did not know whether to market the city as South or Midwest, but they chose south as the south is hot!
Research also revealed it was more appealing to market Louisville as a Southern city, not a Midwestern one. The Visitor Profile explained: “Louisville has its own kind of feel … not Nashville, not Atlanta, not Indianapolis or Cincinnati. Not overly hipster, not snobby, not a bunch of hicks. It’s its own kind of place, unique, different, Southern, a little elegant and fun.”
So Louisville's own convention bureau did not even know if it should be Midwest or Southern, but they are going with the Southern thing and folks form MI, OH, IL, IN, MO, etc etc are eating it up! Louisville has doubled its tourists in just 5 years.
And since I will not let you belittle Louisville anymore, riddle me this...why does "little" Louisville attracts OVER 20 million annual tourists a year, and STL attracts 23.9 million. Louisville offers a mean punch, and tons to do for a metro of 1.5 million ,that's why it attracts more leisure travelers and almost as many annual visitors as the "big" city of STL. And let's face it, MO has no signature drink like bourbon, and no signature event like Derby or Thunder (or the many other top 10 Louisville festivals like Forecastle, St James Art, Humana Festival of New American Plays etc).
How many times do I need to school you with facts...but you will come back...well Louisville is southern. just because. its small. yeah. take that. Come on man....I think we actually all agree here, to one degree or another. Cincy and STL are midwest, but have some southern influence. Louisville was historically midwest and still contains catholics, german/irish, and lots of midwest culture, but it is now 50% or more southern.
Last edited by Peter1948; 07-21-2016 at 08:33 PM..
Again...twisting words. STL has MOSTLY a midwest accent. But there are plenty of southern accents there! I'd say 20% easy. And I have heard them all over the metro. My most frequent encounters? Gas stations and fast food. Also the fact that you bring up "all of us" makes me very wary you use another login and actually respond to yourself.
In almost every single map, Louisville is on the edge. Louisville does not even say "y'all" There is no more obvious evidence of Louisville's hybrid identity than this! Louisville is the only place where they say "you all"
And what's more? STL has lots of oddities and shares some words with the south! Louisville is hybrid city. STL is mostly midwest, with a hint of south. That's ok! Being southern is better as the south is growing! Again, can you read sir? STL is MIDWESTERN! We agree. But it has some southern characteristics. This is why the OP created this thread.
Even Louisville's BOOMING tourism and convention business, doing great before around 3000 hotel room open up soon, did not know whether to market the city as South or Midwest, but they chose south as the south is hot!
Research also revealed it was more appealing to market Louisville as a Southern city, not a Midwestern one. The Visitor Profile explained: “Louisville has its own kind of feel … not Nashville, not Atlanta, not Indianapolis or Cincinnati. Not overly hipster, not snobby, not a bunch of hicks. It’s its own kind of place, unique, different, Southern, a little elegant and fun.”
So Louisville's own convention bureau did not even know if it should be Midwest or Southern, but they are going with the Southern thing and folks form MI, OH, IL, IN, MO, etc etc are eating it up! Louisville has doubled its tourists in just 5 years.
And since I will not let you belittle Louisville anymore, riddle me this...why does "little" Louisville attracts OVER 20 million annual tourists a year, and STL attracts 23.9 million. Louisville offers a mean punch, and tons to do for a metro of 1.5 million ,that's why it attracts more leisure travelers and almost as many annual visitors as the "big" city of STL. And let's face it, MO has no signature drink like bourbon, and no signature event like Derby or Thunder (or the many other top 10 Louisville festivals like Forecastle, St James Art, Humana Festival of New American Plays etc).
How many times do I need to school you with facts...but you will come back...well Louisville is southern. just because. its small. yeah. take that. Come on man....I think we actually all agree here, to one degree or another. Cincy and STL are midwest, but have some southern influence. Louisville was historically midwest and still contains catholics, german/irish, and lots of midwest culture, but it is now 50% or more southern.
Stl doesn't have anywhere near 20 percent southern accent lol. to hear 20 percent probably not until you get about 20 miles NE of Rolla, or about 50 miles south of St. Louis (not along the MS Hill region in far E MO but due south of stl). Southern dialect doesn't become dominate, majority until you're about 50 miles from Arkansas. The southern quarter, 1/4 of the state southern dialect is dominate and the other 1/4 that's transition zone it's either split or is general flat accent the further north in the transition zone you get as you get further away.
"Missouri between US 50 and about 20 miles north of highway 60 is a transition zone."
I realize this is a St. Louis thread...and I hate to be a nit picker but I've seen this and similar statements a few times and it needs to be corrected. As a 35+ year resident of the area, I can tell you that this imaginary transition zone -- however wide it may be -- starts well south of US-50, certainly somewhere on the south side of Lake of the Ozarks. Counties such as Franklin, Gasconade, Osage, Cole, Miller and west to Benton County are mostly rural but still northern areas. They have solid German traditions. They have large Lutheran and Catholic populations. I think they still have occasional German language events in some places like Cole Camp. There are southern-ish transitional enclaves in places like Fulton, Lexington and maybe Boonville and maybe Fayette -- the general Booneslick region -- but they are somewhat separate and also associated with the river culture. They are well north of US 50.
If you are looking for a transition zone I would suggest a line following US-54 east out of Kansas that went straight to Rolla and then southeast to Cape Girardeau. With that you might be closer to the edge of the transition zone....although those western rolling prairie counties might be more Bible Belt than transitional. Like the Boonslick area north of the Mo. river, the old mining district -- St. Francis, Washington and Iron counties -- is a little hard to categorize. There were elderly people who still spoke a form of French/English at home in some isolated spots in my lifetime. When I met them (early 1970s) their adult children were working in St. Louis and I suspect all of that culture is now lost.
I think highway 60 might be a reasonable (but blurry) southern edge of the transition zone.
I suggested in another threat after spending a lot of time in southeast Missouri recently that the south begins somewhere in those 30 miles between Cape and Sikeston.
I suggested in another threat after spending a lot of time in southeast Missouri recently that the south begins somewhere in those 30 miles between Cape and Sikeston.
Depends what area of the State. The line isn't straight. South Central missouri the line spikes north a bit for example. Stlouisian made a good map showing it and then the line curves down south of Joplin. As thbgunner said Jackson missouri is pretty southern and he's from there and I trust him but cape has some Midwest influence too and Jackson seems more southern he said than cape is. Emminence missouri seems pretty southern and so does van Buren too.
Also about around highway 50 near little Dixie st. Louisan said the southern influences are still fairly noticeable he said since being transferred there for work after being in dexter missouri which is the south btw. He said he was shocked and said it was probably about 40 percent southern influence. I was shocked hearing that come from him so yes places like Booneville and Lexington I can agree with the other poster saying still some influence around there.
Yep, totally agree. Louisville is near the edge though so I'd expect you would hear some non southern accents as well, just like north of there in the transition zone you will still hear a few naturally too.
In general though the southern accent is declining. I'm sure it's less now than back in 1997 as young people grow up and the old timers die out who had the accent.
Eh I wouldn't go that far. For example the old Gullah inspired Charleston accent has in recent times moved to a more Southern sound rather than a rare West Indian one. That is a card where with time an accent became more Southern in sound.
Again...twisting words. STL has MOSTLY a midwest accent. But there are plenty of southern accents there! I'd say 20% easy. And I have heard them all over the metro. My most frequent encounters? Gas stations and fast food. Also the fact that you bring up "all of us" makes me very wary you use another login and actually respond to yourself.
In almost every single map, Louisville is on the edge. Louisville does not even say "y'all" There is no more obvious evidence of Louisville's hybrid identity than this! Louisville is the only place where they say "you all"
And what's more? STL has lots of oddities and shares some words with the south! Louisville is hybrid city. STL is mostly midwest, with a hint of south. That's ok! Being southern is better as the south is growing! Again, can you read sir? STL is MIDWESTERN! We agree. But it has some southern characteristics. This is why the OP created this thread.
Even Louisville's BOOMING tourism and convention business, doing great before around 3000 hotel room open up soon, did not know whether to market the city as South or Midwest, but they chose south as the south is hot!
Research also revealed it was more appealing to market Louisville as a Southern city, not a Midwestern one. The Visitor Profile explained: “Louisville has its own kind of feel … not Nashville, not Atlanta, not Indianapolis or Cincinnati. Not overly hipster, not snobby, not a bunch of hicks. It’s its own kind of place, unique, different, Southern, a little elegant and fun.”
So Louisville's own convention bureau did not even know if it should be Midwest or Southern, but they are going with the Southern thing and folks form MI, OH, IL, IN, MO, etc etc are eating it up! Louisville has doubled its tourists in just 5 years.
And since I will not let you belittle Louisville anymore, riddle me this...why does "little" Louisville attracts OVER 20 million annual tourists a year, and STL attracts 23.9 million. Louisville offers a mean punch, and tons to do for a metro of 1.5 million ,that's why it attracts more leisure travelers and almost as many annual visitors as the "big" city of STL. And let's face it, MO has no signature drink like bourbon, and no signature event like Derby or Thunder (or the many other top 10 Louisville festivals like Forecastle, St James Art, Humana Festival of New American Plays etc).
How many times do I need to school you with facts...but you will come back...well Louisville is southern. just because. its small. yeah. take that. Come on man....I think we actually all agree here, to one degree or another. Cincy and STL are midwest, but have some southern influence. Louisville was historically midwest and still contains catholics, german/irish, and lots of midwest culture, but it is now 50% or more southern.
Native STL Whites have no trace of a Southern accent. You think maybe these people might have been from elsewhere? Why are you using evidence when it suits your argument but when it doesn't you resort to anecdotes? No linguistic study had ever acknowledged any Southern influence on the St. Louis accent. St. Louis in all studies is proven to have a mostly Midwest accent with a Northern Cities Vowel Shift; hardly representative of anything Southern. At all.
Last edited by EddieOlSkool; 07-22-2016 at 07:15 AM..
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