Tragedy in Kirkwood (St. Louis: mayor, top, 2008)

[Danilo-11]

Originally Posted by jojojohnson76

What's your point? I'm not understanding...Is this a just reason to murder 5 people?

It's obvious that some people around here are .....
well, I could say a lot of things, but I'm not gonna say them.
Let's do this step by step so you can understand it.

Who the .............. asked this question?

Originally Posted by jojojohnson76

Why didn't this idiot move out of Kirkwood instead of killing 5 people and being killed and sent to rot in hell?

Now,
It looks to me like this answer might be for that question

Originally Posted by Danilo-11

You see,
after reading all those article I can give you a descent answer.
He had lived in that area at least since he was a kid ...

[jcunderwood]

Isn't is ironic that the very area Kirkwood tried to wipe out by building a shopping mall, is now the area that the gunman came from. Let me state one thing first; What Cookie Thorton did was unjustified and uncalled for, however in a way the citizens of Kirkwood had this coming.I'm not saying 5 people deserved to die, but when people from Kirkwood act like the area of Meacham Park didn't exist something was bound to happen. I know a lot of people that live in Kirkwood and I knew nothing about the area of Meacham Park until the incident last year when that young man randomly shot a Kirkwood cop in the face over and over again. The young man shot that cop because earlier that month his younger brother had died from an existing heart condition. He claimed that his brothers death was caused because of how long it took for the Kirkwood ambulance to respond to the call, just because it was from Meacham Park. That cop driving around on duty in Meacham Park did not deserve to die much like the people at City hall the other night. But for all of these people on this forum to claim that race had nothing to do with either of these incidents is absolutely ridiculous. St. Louis in general in one of the most racially segregated cities in the United States. Here is an example:

I go to UMSL and I am getting my bachelors in elementary education. You must do your observations at the schools UMSL assigns you to. Everyone in my class was assigned to two different elementary schools in the Ferguson-Florissant school district. I sat back and listened to all of the ignorant comments my classmates had to say about how "ghetto" those areas are. They held nothing back as they kept looking at me to participate in the conversation. Then I let them all know that I am from Florissant and have lived there my whole life. Of course none of them thought that because they just assumed everyone from North County was African-American. The most interesting part of the conversation was that after the awkward silence, they all started asking me for directions. It became very apparent to me that all of these people, prejudging my town had NEVER even been to my town. They weren't even familiar with the major exists off of 270, not to mention major side roads. These students were from KIRKWOOD, O'Fallon, Fenton and St. Peter's. So yes everything has to do with race. Anyone that wants to pretend that there isn't any racial tension in Kirkwood, Florissant, or anywhere else in the St. Louis area is absolutely oblivious!

If you get anything from this post just know this: I am very sorry for the families that lost their loved ones in Kirkwood. Also, I feel sorry for everyone from Kirkwood because they are getting so defensive making sure everyone knows "this was just an isolated incident". Just know that if this would of happened anywhere in North County it would of received 50% less media attention. Also, I can only assume that the majority of people from Kirkwood wouldn't be as sympathetic if it happened any where else in the St. Louis area.

[aragx6]

There are a couple of very real truths in your post as well as quite a few misconceptions and fallacies.

First things you said that make sense: St. Louis is very segregated, NoCo often is prejudged - some of it fair, most of it not.

But the fact is: Both residents of Kirkwood and residents of Meacham Park agreed to the annexation back in the early 90s. Why? because Meacham park was in desperate need of services and they couldn't provide them on their own Kirkwood helped them.

It would be stupid to say race played no role int his, as there are obvious tensions in the area, but this incident, at its core, isn't about race. It's about a whackjob who couldn't follow the rules, who wouldn't listen, and who eventually came to care more about his cause than the lives of himself, his family and his neighbors.

I'm not sure what your anecdote about UMSL is supposed to prove in this argument. You grew up in what some people consider now to be an undesirable area and you're mad that kids who didn't grow up there don't know the side streets there. What does that have with Cookie or Kirkwood or race for that matter.

And the most offensive thing to come out of your post is to say that it would have received 50 percent less media attention if this had happened in North County. That's false, offensive and without base. 5 government officials being murdered is always going to be national news; you're obviously pretty naive if you don't see that.

[WalnutPark829]

Originally Posted by aragx6

There are a couple of very real truths in your post as well as quite a few misconceptions and fallacies.

First things you said that make sense: St. Louis is very segregated, NoCo often is prejudged - some of it fair, most of it not.

But the fact is: Both residents of Kirkwood and residents of Meacham Park agreed to the annexation back in the early 90s. Why? because Meacham park was in desperate need of services and they couldn't provide them on their own Kirkwood helped them.

It would be stupid to say race played no role int his, as there are obvious tensions in the area, but this incident, at its core, isn't about race. It's about a whackjob who couldn't follow the rules, who wouldn't listen, and who eventually came to care more about his cause than the lives of himself, his family and his neighbors.

I'm not sure what your anecdote about UMSL is supposed to prove in this argument. You grew up in what some people consider now to be an undesirable area and you're mad that kids who didn't grow up there don't know the side streets there. What does that have with Cookie or Kirkwood or race for that matter.

And the most offensive thing to come out of your post is to say that it would have received 50 percent less media attention if this had happened in North County. That's false, offensive and without base. 5 government officials being murdered is always going to be national news; you're obviously pretty naive if you don't see that.

I believe the posters point about UMSL and people not knowing the side streets, is those people had obviously never been to the area and considered it ghetto trash because of the percentage of minorities. The poster I believe is trying to make the point that race is the overwhelming issue in a good majority of St. Louisians minds.

And about Meacham Park, your naive if you believe Kirkwoods intentions were to help the area out, they tried to force out the residents but could not get rid of them all. Thats why they immediately started tearing down homes and building shopping centers misplacing many of the poor people.

This murderer was sick in the head and his illness was due to him feeling slighted for being black, it had everything to do with race, the people of meacham park feel slighted like an ugly step child of the city of Kirkwood.

Kirkwood has done very little over the last 18 years, and the years before that as neighbors, to help ease this problem and include MP into the conversation and truly accept them as "a real part of kirkwood."

Many whites in Kirkwood would like to knock the whole neighborhood down and send "the problem" somewhere else "where they belong" and build shopping centers and luxury condos in their place.

And on the subject of media coverage, if this happened in say Jennings? would the metro area be as shocked and remorseful? would we hear things like "this shouldnt happen in Jennings?" as we hear about kirkwood? when in reality people should be saying "this shouldnt happen anywhere". or would the people of the metro area just say "oh well Jennings, what do you expect" Race is everything in St. Louis, were in a constant race to get away from other race.

Cookie Thornton is despicable as is his family who claims he went "to war". His actions should not be condoned. But Kirkwood in the future, as well as everywhere else in the metro area, including NOCO, and SOCO, need to work better on race relations and not shun areas that we find undesirable and just try to displace the people that have lived there for generations. Its time to work together for the common good. We can never stop a crazed man, but we can stop the ideas in his neighborhood that "he went down a martyr because he fought the powerful white man who has been bringing us down."

I dont know if i got my point across well or not. The main thing is the trajedy very saddening and terrible, but I believe race was the underlying issue and will continue to be in the future unless something is done.

[aragx6]

It's a difficult situation, not one easily sorted out. Yes, there have been issues with Meacham for years and years, but they needed services so they allowed themselves to be annexed. You can't wholly blame Kirkwood for that. Nor can you blame them for wanting to increase property values in that area, as it's surrounded by very valuable real estate. But some of their initiatives are wrong, and it's been sticky, I doubt anyone would argue that.

Class plays a very important role in this country, and the fact is arguments between the haves and the have nots occur everywhere, between whites and blacks, between whites and whites and between blacks and blacks. My opinion is that many times it's a power issue masquerading as a race issue.

Things were done that were wrong on both sides of this issue, but for jcunderwood to say "in a way the citizens of Kirkwood had this coming" is just wrong. Meacham park dug its own grave long ago.

Also: Jackasses from St. Peters or Creve Couer or wherever that don't know anything about NoCo but judge it anyway are an issue in St. Louis, no doubt. What's funny to me is that many of their parents grew up there and fled the area along with all the other racist whites sometime over the last 50 years.

But, St. Louis is a big suburb and no one knows every area perfectly well, and therefore rely on stereotypes. Some of them are true, some of them are not. I am sure jcunderwood has preconceived notions about St. Louis, much like the poster in the other thread that you were upset with earlier.

St. Charles is full of hoosiers, South County is racist rednecks, West County is spoiled rich kids etc. etc. None of those are entirely innacurate, but none are all right either. I still don't think that has as much to do with the subject at hand, as some of the other issues in the post.

[RickMG]

Originally Posted by WalnutPark829

I And about Meacham Park, your naive if you believe Kirkwoods intentions were to help the area out, they tried to force out the residents but could not get rid of them all. Thats why they immediately started tearing down homes and building shopping centers misplacing many of the poor people.

This murderer was sick in the head and his illness was due to him feeling slighted for being black, it had everything to do with race, the people of meacham park feel slighted like an ugly step child of the city of Kirkwood.

Kirkwood has done very little over the last 18 years, and the years before that as neighbors, to help ease this problem and include MP into the conversation and truly accept them as "a real part of kirkwood."

Many whites in Kirkwood would like to knock the whole neighborhood down and send "the problem" somewhere else "where they belong" and build shopping centers and luxury condos in their place.

I could not agree with your words here more with two exceptions Your saying it had everything to do with race is one. What I believe was that it had everything to do with race...in his mind. There is a big difference. And I would leave out that many whites in Kirkwood. I think that's many people in Kirkwood. Remember, a lot of people that don't like MP are only thinking of how bad it used to be.

[Northwoods Voyager]

The Tragedy in Kirkwood is still that. A tragedy. 5 people were killed by one man. There is no excuse for that fact. Mr. Thorton was guilty of killing 5 people that did not deserve to die in this manner. Call it what you will, it does not change or alter this. Please back off of the race issue. Yes it exists. But a killing such as this does not set an example for our children concerning problem solving. I am so sorry to see this thread become a race issue thread.

Mr. Thornton had problems and evidently was unable to resolve any of them. Again another shooting, this time in Northern Illinois on a campus. No excuse for this either. My prayers and thoughts are with the families of these victims. All of them.

[Danilo-11]

Interesting posts,
after reading them, they reminded me of what "WalnutPark829" pointed out that I think says a lot:
"What his brother said when he was interviewed and the way he said it"
There had to be a big problem that is likely to be the whole issue of race, Meacham Park, etc.

Keep in mind that Thornton went to college and came back to start his business in Meacham Park and was very involved in community service.
So it's obvious that this guy cared A LOT about that community.


Gunman’s relative: “My brother went to war� | Top Stories | KMOV.com | St. Louis, MO

The brother of the man who opened fire at the Kirkwood City Hall on Thursday evening tells News 4 that his brother was striking back at government officials that had been giving him trouble.

News 4’s Laurie Waters spoke with Gerald Thornton about what prompted Charles “Cookie” Thornton to attack police and city officials.

“The only way that I can put into context that you might understand is that my brother went to war tonight with the people, the government that was putting torment and strife into his life. He has spoke on it as best he could in the courts, and they denied all rights to the access of protection and he took it upon himself to go to war and end the issue,” Gerald Thornton said.

“I can’t change it. The thing that I can say is that he went to war with the people that were causing strife in his life and he ended it,” said Thornton.

[aragx6]

His family has handled this quite poorly. What distasteful comments given that 5 innocent people are dead. Feel sorry for him in private if you want, but this is not appropriate for the public.

[jojojohnson76]

Originally Posted by By~Tor

This story actually made the news in New York, believe it or not.... I feel for the families, frineds & neighbors of those affected....

Uh. It was all over national news. Is New York an exception to that or what?

Yep, even us country fried hicks out in the middle of the cornfields can make the big city news! YEEEEEEEEEEEEEHAWWWWW.

Okay, maybe I'm getting a bit defensive...but c'mon.