Chicago (or DC or NYC or Boston) vs. St. Louis (Laclede: middle-class, houses)

[Bobster]

Believe me, I know all about how stupid the St. Louis city government can be. I moved myself and my business out of the city because I was sick of dealing with the idiots at city hall.....dont' get me started because I have a story to tell!

That said, I think that it's short sighted for a metropolitan area that is as spread out as St. Louis is to NOT develop a comprehensive light rail system.

[goat314]

Originally Posted by MoNative34

Bob, First off thank you for being tactful. In the end, we may have to agree to disagree, but that's okay.

I understand that in older areas of town, some population loss due to attrition is normal. But what about when St. Louis City loses almost half the population in a 50 year period? There's something very wrong with St. Louis City when they lose that many people. My parents left the city in 1966 and I don't blame them one bit. Look at the sorry state of the St. Louis Public Schools. Who in their right mind would want their kids in a school system where failure seems to be the status quo?? Who wants their hard-earned tax money to support that when there are better options outside the city?
Crime went up to in the city and you can say "crime is everywhere", but the rates are significantly higher in the city. My grandparents lived in South City when I was growing up so I've witnessed a change in a neighborhood over a 15 year period.

So what's the city to do? Are they going to continue to blame the suburbs for all of their problems and refer to them as "scared" and "racisits", etc.?
(Doesn't that make people want to move back.)

They can continue the status quo with "lets have a new tax to fix this problem" (The new tax ideas never seem to end) or they can act more efficient, cut the corruption, fix the schools and be true leaders.
How many more cost overruns will Bi-State have with Metro-Link? The taxpayers have not been winners on that.

That's where St. Charles County enters the picture. People my age are starting families and buying homes. And just like me, they've witnessed the blunders of St. Louis City (and still don't trust them), want their kids in good schools, want safe neighborhoods and don't want to pay high taxes and get nothing back.

That's why they voted the way they voted on Metro Link IMO.

I want the city to improve, but after 35 years, I'm at my wits end. That's a shame because I like St. Louis and have a personal connection to it because I grew up there. They're many things about the city/metro that I like and I've mentioned them on other posts/threads so the above comments aren't my only ones on St. Louie.

The creation of the suburbs and post-war racism against Southern Blacks who moved North caused mass exodus in all old urban cities except New York wiseguy!

[MoNative34]

Thank you for providing the perfect illustration of my point.

[STLCardsBlues1989]

He is right. Pretty much all cities experienced richer people (mostly white) moving to the suburbs. It's called White Flight.

[aragx6]

Originally Posted by MoNative34

Thank you for providing the perfect illustration of my point.

Funny that you said that, as I was thinking exactly that about you! Run and hide from diversity as quick as we can!

[MoNative34]

Really? I explained everything in post #19 and backed it up with reasons. It's okay to disagree, but the angry, kneejerk "you're just a bigot" response is rather childish. Bobster can disagree and not go that route, so I'll rep him.

I talked about how city residents moved out over a 50 year period and reasons that I believe why from personal experience (schools, city politics, taxes, etc.). People of all races left the city for the county for a better life. The city has potential, but being bitter and angry at the suburbs doesn't fix the problem.

[Bobster]

Interesting! Very spirited conversation. Regarding the white flight issue, I don't think that anyone could deny that it did indeed have a racist component to it.

But it also had economic components to it as well. St. Louis was blessed or cursed (depending upon how you look at it) with an abundance of developable land. Also Interstate 70 was the country's first interstate highway and it started right here in good ole St. Lou. I-55 and 44 followed along right afterwards...making living further out easier.

The GI Bill, along with other low downpayment alternatives such as FHA also contributed to the development of affordable, lower density housing alternatives, which many took advantage of. This also contributed to people moving out of major metropolitan areas...not just St. Louis.

All that said, I'm not going to let the various "powers that be" here in St. Louis off the hook. Going back to the 1860's the St. Louis power structure has repeatedly blown it with various opportunities.

1) They didn't back the railroads, even though St. Louis' more central location gave them a distinct advantage over Chicago.

2) They allowed the school system to crumble (after having been one of the most progressive in the country).

3) They land locked themselves by withdrawing from St. Louis County.

4) They withheld services from the cities north side for decades, contributing to it's economic decline.

5) They continued to operate city hall as if we were a city of over a million people when in actuality we weren't anymore.

6) They have allowed a spirit of distrust and non-cooperation to reign between the city's black population and it's white population. (both sides are to blame, by the way)

Even to this day the city has continued to play politics with the school district and other issues that could contribute to the city coming back bigger, stronger and quicker than it already is.

A perfect example of a stupid decision on the part of the city power players was how they ruined the Gateway Mall. What was a great idea that could have been truly unique (or at least very cool) pedestrian mall stretching uninterrupted from the old courthouse to the civil courts building was RUINED by rich people being greedy! (sorry, pet peeve of mine that I wanted to work into this rant).

Anyway, I can understand MoNative's frustration with the city. I feel the exact same way in many regards, but that doesn't stay the fact that people who live in outlying areas of St. Louis need to recognize that the city is indeed the core...the heart of the entire metropolitan area and in order to fully recognize our potential, we all need to take a broader perspective when looking at regional issues.

[aragx6]

I'm not bitter about the suburbs, i grew up in one and all in all had a good childhood (dysfunctional family aside) but you don't have to want to live in the city to understand it's importance, just as Bobster said. I think a lot of suburbanites think they'd be legitimately better of were it not for the city (I've had this opinion espoused to me) and I think that's hogwash.

Also- Bobster I hadn't thought about the GI Bill, but that's a good point. My parents bought our house with a VA loan... it's helped a lot of families purchase homes they otherwise couldn't have.

[kshe95girl]

Originally Posted by Bobster

Interstate 70 was the country's first interstate highway and it started right here in good ole St. Lou. I-55 and 44 followed along right afterwards...making living further out easier.

Actually, it was 44 (old highway 66) and I-70. I-55 came later, I can remember when it was completed in Sainte Genevieve County in '72.
Also, Kansas and Pennsylvania vie with Mo for the title of first interstates, theres a great article about it at Three States Claim First Interstate Highway , check it out!
dont mean to hijack the thread, but I knew that statement was not altogether correct.

[anduarto]

A few things, then I'm swearing off this dang forum (yeah, right).

1. What's wrong with gay sushi bars?

2. A viable public transportation system is vital to running a first class city.
I can't believe St. Charles actually voted down the Metrolink and, from what I gather WEST COUNTY DID AS WELL! Incredibly stupid!

For a couple years I lived just west of Creve Coeur and commuted to school at SLU. Sometimes I had a car, sometimes I didn't. You ever take the Bus from 270 & Olive down to Grand Ave? Two hours +

West County ESPECIALLY should have the metrolink since it it the logical extension of the Central Corridor. It's a straight shot to downtown. My sister still lives out that way and works on Lindell. I'm sure she'd use it all the time. I know I would when I visit her. Thank god the good people of Clayton aren't so short-sighted.

Some of the "safety" arguments and "not having the city come to the suburbs" sound suspicious to me. Entirely too much like the arguments that many voiced about the Metrolink in the first place. "Only the Blacks will use it" is an argument I heard several times. Putting the implicit racism of that comment aside for a moment, let's look at it practically:

a) It isn't true; the Metrolink is far more successful and popular than anyone would have guessed. It's also extremely "tourist" friendly; when you're new to a city public transportation is far more inviting than car travel.

c) African Americans are a significant portion of St. Louis' population. Even if "only the blacks" used it, we're talking about a large part of the citizenry. What's wrong with serving the black community?

And what? you think people from the city can't drive to St. Charles? Jesus christ, we know where you live.

3) The national highway system, efficient as it is, is responsible for choking off core cities all across the country. I know it sounds far-fetched, but I really do think it was a collusion between the Federal Government and corporate america to sell cars and gasoline. Yes, it's important to have a good national highway system, but looking at how it's designed, it really does seem to have been planned to cut-off the urban centers. The highways form almost a noose around downtown St. Lou. 55 divides it from the waterfront. Much easier to just keep driving.

Public transit was too old and established in NYC to be much affected. Boston, to it's credit, is one of the few cities to have demanded that the Federal Government subsidize it's public transit at the same time it built it's highways.

4) White flight was a huge part of the decline in St. Lou. (I was there. I heard the white people talking. Bigots almost always assume everyone listening agrees with them).
But it wasn't the entire problem either. My own parents sort of panicked in the mid-70's. There were eight of us at the time, living in a small house in Dogtown. We only had one bathroom and, quite reasonably, they wanted to get a loan to put in a second one. The banks turned them down. The neighborhood was "red-lined". In other words, it wasn't "blighted" then, but the insurance companies and banks thought it would be in 10 - 20 years. It scared them badly. We moved.

I hate insurance companies. It's the biggest scam going.

And look at Dogtown 30 years later - stronger than ever.

Get behind the Metrolink people. It's one of the best things to happen in St. Louis is the last 20 years.