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Old 05-24-2017, 01:38 PM
 
3,122 posts, read 3,350,067 times
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Correct me if I am remembering history wrongly but I do not think that war started over slavery. Am I wrong?

As for quotes, there was a senator - forgive me for not going into the other room to recall his name - who said "My country right or wrong - if right, to be kept right; if wrong, to be set right".

We are a better nation than we were 200 years ago and we will, with any success, be a still better nation 200 years from now. One way to get better is to learn what we did wrong. But carrying vengeful grudges and all that entails will not help. We cannot expect improvement if we keep harping on past sins. Even our memorials are reminders of both our rights and our wrongs.

And that is enough - if not too much - from me. I'm off. Carry on.
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Old 05-24-2017, 03:31 PM
 
3,711 posts, read 2,681,808 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazel W View Post
Correct me if I am remembering history wrongly but I do not think that war started over slavery. Am I wrong?
The war did in fact start over slavery. More specifically, the right of states to institute slavery (but not the right of other states to free slaves within their borders, a practice which greatly antagonized the South at various times before the war).

Quote:
For example, in its declaration of secession, Mississippi explained, "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery — the greatest material interest of the world … a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization." In its declaration of secession, South Carolina actually comes out against the rights of states to make their own laws — at least when those laws conflict with slaveholding. "In the State of New York even the right of transit for a slave has been denied by her tribunals," the document reads. The right of transit, Loewen said, was the right of slaveholders to bring their slaves along with them on trips to non-slaveholding states.

In its justification of secession, Texas sums up its view of a union built upon slavery: "We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable."
6 Civil War Myths, Busted
Avalon Project - Confederate States of America - Mississippi Secession
Avalon Project - Confederate States of America - A Declaration of the Causes which Impel the State of Texas to Secede from the Federal Union
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Old 05-24-2017, 04:17 PM
 
1,400 posts, read 690,699 times
Reputation: 812
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazel W View Post
Correct me if I am remembering history wrongly but I do not think that war started over slavery. Am I wrong?

As for quotes, there was a senator - forgive me for not going into the other room to recall his name - who said "My country right or wrong - if right, to be kept right; if wrong, to be set right".

We are a better nation than we were 200 years ago and we will, with any success, be a still better nation 200 years from now. One way to get better is to learn what we did wrong. But carrying vengeful grudges and all that entails will not help. We cannot expect improvement if we keep harping on past sins. Even our memorials are reminders of both our rights and our wrongs.

And that is enough - if not too much - from me. I'm off. Carry on.
You are correct. The Civil War was about much more than just slavery, as it wasn't even Lincoln's initial intent to free the slaves. The South had an agricultural based economy, while the North was transformed by the Industrial Revolution. Many of the main lines of transportation ran east to west, as the divide between the North and South began almost as soon as the country was founded. The potential for war slowly developed over decades, but began to escalate quickly as new states were admitted to the union. Would a new state be a slave state or a free state? The Missouri Compromise was a temporary answer to that question. What many people do not realize is that slavery was legal per the Constitution, which is what every state agreed to when the country was founded.

With all that said, if it wasn't for Eli Whitney and his cotton gin, there may have never been a Civil War.
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Old 05-24-2017, 05:10 PM
 
208 posts, read 205,752 times
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Originally Posted by prizm View Post
The South lost, morally, physically and economically. Their ideals of enslaving people were crushed and burned to the ground...
Your understanding of the American Civil War is impressive. When is your lecture scheduled for Berkeley? And will you be giving out free Antifa masks?
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Old 05-24-2017, 11:32 PM
 
63 posts, read 197,208 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthCitySam View Post
Your understanding of the American Civil War is impressive. When is your lecture scheduled for Berkeley? And will you be giving out free Antifa masks?

Let me guess... you don't like dem liburls.
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Old 05-25-2017, 01:37 PM
 
Location: SW Missouri
694 posts, read 1,196,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazel W View Post
It is sad, sad because all it is is another mark of cheap politics. Just another example of history being written by the "winners". There were two sides to that war and both sides should be allowed to have remembrances.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazel W View Post
Correct me if I am remembering history wrongly but I do not think that war started over slavery. Am I wrong?
Amongst the thousands of quotes made at the time or shortly thereafter by those who lived and fought the war in question, offering us our best view of what people were thinking at the time, I offer this one from Louisiana Confederate soldier who fought at Wilson's Creek. I find this one particularly relevant since he, writing this shortly after the war, made the same accusation you did about the writing of history - but admits the role of slavery in its cause.

Confederate soldier William Tunnard, started his book “A Southern Record: The History of the Third Louisiana Regiment” “Truthfulness is the gem which gives to History its greatest charm ; the golden light which adorns it with mellow rays for all coming time. Hence in making History by our own deeds, or writing them for present and future ages, we should adhere strictly to the promulgation of facts alone. It is a lamentable circumstance that deep-seated, ineradicable prejudices have been ingrafted into every published record which has been given to the public concerning the late struggle. Men must be governed by fixed principles, must adhere to cherished thoughts and feelings, and hence act, speak and write in conformity with these controlling influences. Thus the Northern mind thinks of the war as a gigantic rebellion to destroy the American Government, while the South conceived it to be a struggle for the preservation of constitutional freedom and their peculiar institutions. No one at the present time can properly determine the truth. Justice, with her nicely-balanced scales, must wait for historians of the next century to properly weigh facts, in order to discriminate between the North and South, and give to the world a correct record of events connected with this gigantic internecine strife. Fanaticism, that foul demon of discord and strife, first reared its hydra-head among the mountains and hills of New England. From an insignificant birth, it grew in strength and power until its influence extended over the whole North. The first aim and object of this foul spirit was the eradication of slavery on this continent, an interference with the peculiar institutions of one section by the powerful arm of the opposing section. In opposition to fanaticism grew up an equally malignant spirit in the South. As years passed by, feelings of hatred and enmity first engendered, grew in intensity and bitterness until all compromise was rejected and the sword was unsheathed to settle the differences which existed. Of the opening acts of the war it is needless to write. They are known by every man, woman and child in the land, and are engraven in characters of living light upon millions of throbbing hearts.”

Tunnard had answered the call by Confederate Brigadier General Ben McCullouch who proclaimed “I call upon you, therefore, to rally to the defence of your sister State, Missouri. Her cause is your cause, and the cause of justice and independence. Then rally, my countrymen, and assist your friends in Missouri to drive back the Republican myrmidons that still pollute her soil and threaten to invade your own country, confiscate your property, liberate your slaves, and put to the sword every true Southern man who dares to take up arms in defence of his rights.”

The 'states right' that the South went to war over and men fought for - was so their states could keep their 'peculiar institutions' - slavery.

https://archive.org/stream/southernr...ge/20/mode/2up
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Old 05-25-2017, 07:22 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
7,303 posts, read 5,976,952 times
Reputation: 4350
Quote:
Originally Posted by SW Missouri Dave View Post
Amongst the thousands of quotes made at the time or shortly thereafter by those who lived and fought the war in question, offering us our best view of what people were thinking at the time, I offer this one from Louisiana Confederate soldier who fought at Wilson's Creek. I find this one particularly relevant since he, writing this shortly after the war, made the same accusation you did about the writing of history - but admits the role of slavery in its cause.

Confederate soldier William Tunnard, started his book “A Southern Record: The History of the Third Louisiana Regiment” “Truthfulness is the gem which gives to History its greatest charm ; the golden light which adorns it with mellow rays for all coming time. Hence in making History by our own deeds, or writing them for present and future ages, we should adhere strictly to the promulgation of facts alone. It is a lamentable circumstance that deep-seated, ineradicable prejudices have been ingrafted into every published record which has been given to the public concerning the late struggle. Men must be governed by fixed principles, must adhere to cherished thoughts and feelings, and hence act, speak and write in conformity with these controlling influences. Thus the Northern mind thinks of the war as a gigantic rebellion to destroy the American Government, while the South conceived it to be a struggle for the preservation of constitutional freedom and their peculiar institutions. No one at the present time can properly determine the truth. Justice, with her nicely-balanced scales, must wait for historians of the next century to properly weigh facts, in order to discriminate between the North and South, and give to the world a correct record of events connected with this gigantic internecine strife. Fanaticism, that foul demon of discord and strife, first reared its hydra-head among the mountains and hills of New England. From an insignificant birth, it grew in strength and power until its influence extended over the whole North. The first aim and object of this foul spirit was the eradication of slavery on this continent, an interference with the peculiar institutions of one section by the powerful arm of the opposing section. In opposition to fanaticism grew up an equally malignant spirit in the South. As years passed by, feelings of hatred and enmity first engendered, grew in intensity and bitterness until all compromise was rejected and the sword was unsheathed to settle the differences which existed. Of the opening acts of the war it is needless to write. They are known by every man, woman and child in the land, and are engraven in characters of living light upon millions of throbbing hearts.”

Tunnard had answered the call by Confederate Brigadier General Ben McCullouch who proclaimed “I call upon you, therefore, to rally to the defence of your sister State, Missouri. Her cause is your cause, and the cause of justice and independence. Then rally, my countrymen, and assist your friends in Missouri to drive back the Republican myrmidons that still pollute her soil and threaten to invade your own country, confiscate your property, liberate your slaves, and put to the sword every true Southern man who dares to take up arms in defence of his rights.”

The 'states right' that the South went to war over and men fought for - was so their states could keep their 'peculiar institutions' - slavery.

https://archive.org/stream/southernr...ge/20/mode/2up

What would be more interesting to me is what the average union soldier thought he was fighting for. I have some family insight into it as I had an ancestor on my mother's side who lived in New Jersey and fought for the New Jersey volunteers for the North. He was a farm boy but a proflic writer until he was killed during the battle of Spotsylvania Courthouse and his letters home were saved and passed down. It made for interesting reading. He deeply believed in his cause to save the union and defeat the rebels, who he viewed as traitors. However, he never once mentioned slavery. I'll have to do some research to see if that was common or unusual.
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Old 05-26-2017, 07:23 AM
 
208 posts, read 205,752 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUTGR View Post
He deeply believed in his cause to save the union and defeat the rebels, who he viewed as traitors. However, he never once mentioned slavery.
Not surprising. The common Union foot soldier was duped into sacrificing their life for a contrived cause. The same type of contrivances are of course still used today to rally the nation to useless wars.
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Old 05-26-2017, 08:01 AM
 
3,711 posts, read 2,681,808 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUTGR View Post
What would be more interesting to me is what the average union soldier thought he was fighting for. I have some family insight into it as I had an ancestor on my mother's side who lived in New Jersey and fought for the New Jersey volunteers for the North. He was a farm boy but a proflic writer until he was killed during the battle of Spotsylvania Courthouse and his letters home were saved and passed down. It made for interesting reading. He deeply believed in his cause to save the union and defeat the rebels, who he viewed as traitors. However, he never once mentioned slavery. I'll have to do some research to see if that was common or unusual.
That seems reasonable. Officially, slavery didn't become a motivating factor of the war until the Emancipation Proclamation, as I understand it. Lincoln always asserted the war was for unity.
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Old 05-26-2017, 09:24 AM
 
1,400 posts, read 690,699 times
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Originally Posted by FrankMiller View Post
That seems reasonable. Officially, slavery didn't become a motivating factor of the war until the Emancipation Proclamation, as I understand it. Lincoln always asserted the war was for unity.
Slavery was never really a motivating factor for Lincoln and the North. The Emancipation Proclamation was more about weakening the enemy than it was freeing the slaves. Besides, the Emancipation Proclamation did not free the slaves in slave states (Missouri, Maryland, Kentucky) that remained in the Union, the states that were actually still under Lincoln's control. When Union forces encountered slaves from the South they needed to know how to handle the situation, declaring them free made the most sense.
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