Madison or STL-need advice! (St. Louis, Cape Girardeau: neighborhood, school, university)

[Melindalou7]

[quote=Fishtacos;7319458]Ok...I'll chime in.

4) Madison is significantly different from Des Moines.

Really? How so?

6) I'd give it to Madison for nature and parks etc...for your dogs.

Would you still say this is true, even given the weather differences (i.e., I would be able to walk them 8-10 months in STL vs 6-8 mo in Madison, since we don't do winter walks)?

Jobs, you'd have to be way more specific.

We work in insurance, but he has a BS in Math and I have a BA in English. Nothing more specialized at this time, though I am looking to go back for my MBA. Obviously Madison has the UW, but I think the colleges in STL are very comparable, not to mention there are more of them.

New question-is the public school system the nightmare some posters say it is? We don't have kids and we may never, but I want to be sure the school system isn't just crumbling in STL.

[Fishtacos]

Originally Posted by aragx6

Fish, I'd be curious to hear if town/gown is an issue in Madison like it can be in Columbia, and esp. in Champaign-Urbana and Bloomington IL.

Also while I know Madison is considerably bigger than Columbia, I didn't think that the two schools enrollment was considerably different -- I believe both are well smaller than the "mega schools" like University of Florida, right?

The surounding areas of Columbia are much more conservative than the surrounding areas of Madison, which provide more of a contrast.

Madison hovers right around the top 10 in top 10 National Public Universities in terms of size.

In my experience, it can be a bit challenging socially for transplants not affiliated with UW. The bigger issue is the University. Everyone loves U of Wisconsin in that area and surrounding areas.

[Fishtacos]

Originally Posted by STLCardsBlues1989

I don't understand how "Liberal" came to be called "Progressive" and "Conservative" seems to be associated with "Backward". Conservatism isn't a bad thing overall. You will have nuts on both ends of the spectrum.

I know you weren't speaking about me, but my only references to social issues are putting out there what things are or aren't or seem to be or don't seem to be with a particular area and its surrounding areas. I don't think anyone doubts your assertions. I would point out that Mizzou imo has more relationship issues and challenges as does UI of Wisconsin in terms of surrounding communities and political and social ideologies.

The point for this couple, is that if you are very conservative or progressive, Madison might not be the place for you. It's not an overwhelmingly conservative place. (Although WI did have a two term moderate Republican Govenor not too long ago, replaced with a liberal one)

[aragx6]

The general-entry public schools in the St. Louis city district are very bad indeed -- on par with other urban areas like Chicago, but there has been a lot of movement in the last 10-15 years on successful magnet and charter schools -- some of which rank with the top schools in the state.

There are also many many private school options, from inexpensive parochial schools to very high end schools with tuition higher than what I paid for college.

But it's not an issue to scoff at, and progress is certainly needed. It keeps many families out in the suburbs.

[Fishtacos]

[quote=Melindalou7;7319903]

Originally Posted by Fishtacos

Ok...I'll chime in.

4) Madison is significantly different from Des Moines.

Really? How so?

6) I'd give it to Madison for nature and parks etc...for your dogs.

Would you still say this is true, even given the weather differences (i.e., I would be able to walk them 8-10 months in STL vs 6-8 mo in Madison, since we don't do winter walks)?

Jobs, you'd have to be way more specific.

We work in insurance, but he has a BS in Math and I have a BA in English. Nothing more specialized at this time, though I am looking to go back for my MBA. Obviously Madison has the UW, but I think the colleges in STL are very comparable, not to mention there are more of them.

New question-is the public school system the nightmare some posters say it is? We don't have kids and we may never, but I want to be sure the school system isn't just crumbling in STL.

I don't think you will have any problems or issues for your dogs in either place, nor with parks and nature. I wouldn't let that be your deciding factor either way.

St. Louis does have more colleges, many of them expensive and private, but yes, others such as UMSL etc...are public and University of Missouri affiliated. Having good colleges isn't the point. The point is Madison in feel, centers around the U of Wisconsin, and state government. St. Louis in feel does not. I believe Madison's unemployment rate is about half of St. Louis...4% to 8% but do not quote me on that one.

The urban, city of St. Louis public schools are not strong overall. However, there are many strong suburban public school systems. Some of Madison's public schools are the best in the state, and among the best in the country. You won't have problems with good schools in each area, however, that depends on if you go public v private and also where you live if they are public.

Both Wisconsin and Wash U have very good MBA programs. Joe Fox at Wash U is a terrific guy.

As far as Des Moines and Madison, the differences are in feel and atmosphere imo. Madison, as I mentioned has one of the nation's largest Universities, and life centers around it. That isn't the case in Des Moines. Madison has one of the best per capita rates in the country in terms of PHD's, college graduates, etc...Life is centered around one of the largest and imo one of the best college towns/small cities in the country. Des Moines in some ways would be more easily compared to St. Louis, much much smaller of course than it would be to Madison in terms of style and feel. It's more of a spread out place similar to St. Louis, and it is more moderate in feel similar to St. Louis, etc...

If it were me at age 28, it would depend on my interests and lifestyle at the time and moving forward. Are you more of a large University small city/town person? Or, are you more of a major metro, of medium size type of person?

[SCB123]

Melindalou7,

If you visit KMOV.com, a local news station, you will find that the issues that pertain to STL are covered in acceptable detail. This will help you decide on important quality of life issues. Visit "What's Right with St. Louis", and "Great Day St. Louis".

I strongly suggest that you rent a nice apartment before you buy a home here, if you decide to move to STL. This way you can give yourself time to learn all about the area, schools, health care and all that stuff. I hope you take the time to visit both cities before you decide.

I wish you the best in you job transfer!!

[stl_63123]

Originally Posted by Melindalou7

Hello all! Really glad to have found these forums-they're a big help when you're looking to relocate. I'm currently in a position where my job is being moved to either Madison, WI or St. Louis, MO. Office considerations aside (my company's HQ is in Madison & the office in STL is smaller, but on the West side of the city), I'm having a horrible time deciding which is better, namely because I know they are totally different in almost every aspect. STL is a major metro city & Madison is a mid size northern Midwest town. I'm wanting opinions, though I know that, yes, ultimately it's my choice to make. A bit about me:

-I'm 28, engaged and childless.

-I currently reside in Des Moines, IA. and, from what I can tell Madison isn't that much different. That being said, while I like Iowa, I DESPISE winter. I can deal with it for the sake of a good quality of life since I've been dealing with it for 8 years now, but still not a fan in anyway. Definitely won't be out skiing or sledding or anything else that involves interaction with the cold.

-I'm originally from Evansville, IN., so in terms of climate and regional culture, I'm familiar with what STL has to offer. Even after all this time in Iowa, I still consider myself a southern Midwest woman and am most familiar with that culture. Plus, I'd be a lot closer in distance to family, which is nice.

-I have 3 dogs, 2 of which are large. While dog parks are great and both cities offer them, I really want a place that provides trails and paths to walk them. Doesn't have to be nature-filled and tree-lined, but walking the parking lots at the local strip mall isn't going to cut it for me.

My concerns about both places:

-STL crime. I handle property claims for the STL region currently, so I'm somewhat familiar with the bad & good areas. And I have common sense-it's not like I'd go jogging alone at 1AM. I know any large city has crime, I just want to know if it's an everyday fact of life or something that can, for the most part, be avoided-without having to move to Troy.

-Medical facilities in STL. In Des Moines, our major hospitals have clinics in various locations around town with labs and different Dr.'s. I've seen a similar set up in Madison, but wasn't sure about STL. If I live in Ballwin and my insurance is affiliated with Barnes-Jewish, do I have to drive into the city to see a Dr or are there clinics around town?

-Traffic & general population congestion in STL. As I said, I live In Des Moines and come from an even smaller town in Indiana. I did live in Phoenix for 2 years...and hated it (except for the weather). Just WAY too many people for my taste. Obviously I would look to live near where I work so the commute wouldn't kill me, but I'm a little concerned about being overwhelmed by the size of STL.

-Housing & living costs in Madison. I'm trying to find an apartment that takes large dogs and won't break my budget and that's a little like trying to find an invisibility cloak. And even when I look at houses, I'm a little surprised at how little you get for your money. My current salary is modest-$50K-just how expensive is it to live in Madison?

-Shopping in Madison. And I don't mean brand names or anything. It seems like, for the most part, people there live in suburbs and commute into the city. While there's a lot in Madison, some of these suburbs I looked at have almost nothing in terms of grocery & general goods stores. Not that a Walmart on every corner is a good thing, but is it easy to get supplies or do you have to make a 30 minute trek to Madison every time you need toilet paper?

-Job Opportunities and the economy in both places. Though I have a job, my fiancé would relocate with me and he'd need something. We currently work for the same company, so there's the chance he'll be able to find something with them, but, if he doesn't, do both cities offer a robust job market? I realize given the current state of the economy, now is not the best time to gauge job markets, but do your best on this. And looking 5-10 years down the road, do you see the economies of these cities improving or getting worse?

I'm pretty flexible in terms of what's important to me. I just want a place that's safe and has some economic security with a decent cost of living. Would love warmer weather, but will deal with it for the sake of a good quality of life. Also, I have visited both places, so I've seen, to an extent, what they have to offer. Now I just want to hear from ppl who actually live in these cities and can give me their perspective. I appreciate and welcome all opinions and advice! Thank you!

I only read the first few lines and am excited to see you post something on here. I am from Iowa too. I had an offer from Madison and St Louis at the same time. I chose St Louis for the diversity and weather. I will read some more of your story and may write more. Feel free to private message me if you like.

[Melindalou7]

Also, anybody know the reputation of Maryville University? Has good rankings in US News & World Report & doesn't look as break-the-bank costly as Washington University.

[aaronstlcards]

Originally Posted by Central Illinois 1

I have lived in both areas and here are a few comparisons (at least from my perspective):

Crime - North STL City and East St. Louis have lots of violent crime. You will wnat to stay away from those areas. The remainder of STL and STL County are more comparable to Madison when it comes to crime (i.e., pretty safe overall and definitely very safe in the smaller West County suburbs of STL).

Health Care - Very comparable. Both areas are major health care centers for their regions.

Living Costs - Very comparable for what you get.

Shopping - STL wins out by a mile in this category.

Job Opportunities - Not sure. This seems to change all the time...Are they good anywhere right now?

Traffic- Generally alot worse in STL as it is a much larger area. However, STL is a breeze compared to places like Chicago or LA.

Weather - STL has MUCH MUCH better weather six or seven months out of the year. It is amazing how much warmer STL is in the winter and how much earlier spring comes (70s in STL and still 30s in Madison is not an uncommon occurrance Feb. - April).

Progressive attitudes - Madison wins out hands down - no question about it!! STL is a conservative area overall and, in many ways, seems to have a very conservative southern flavor when it comes to social issues and politics. There is also a fairly well-defined class system in STL. In STL, it DOES matter which prep school you attended (even if it was 30 years ago) and what part of the county you live in. I did not detect this type of attitude so much in Madison.

Overall: Given a choice, I would go to Madison, though STL does have some advantages.

WHAT!!! "St. Louis is a conservative area overall." I guess that's why over 100,000 St. Louisans went to see Barack Obama give a speech under the Arch. And I guess thats why Barack Obama easily (and many previous Democrats) won St. Louis by a landslide. Hmmm, you might want to rethink that.

[SCB123]

Originally Posted by Melindalou7

Also, anybody know the reputation of Maryville University? Has good rankings in US News & World Report & doesn't look as break-the-bank costly as Washington University.

I find it interesting that Wash U advertises affordable tuition; Maryville is $600.00+/cr/hr for grad school. Webster U is around $500.00+. Missouri Baptist has the lowest tuition barring community college. If you want to go to grad school you will pay through the nose for it, unless your employer picks up the tab, or at least helps out.

What is tuition like in Madison?