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I’m back. Just got a quote from another shop that is more reputable and specializes in Subaru’s. Not great news. We had a more thorough inspection done which means more problems were found.
1. They confirmed that the charcoal canister is one of the issues with the gas pump shutting off prematurely. Plus the filler neck is damaged. $600
2. Head gasket oil leak is worse than we thought. Lost 2 quarts of oil in a few weeks. Confirmed head gasket needs replaced. $2700
3. Confirmed power steering system has cracks leaking steering fluid, bad enough to need replacing the whole thing. $1050
4. Front sway bar link needs to be replaced. (Causing the rattling noise we’ve noticed for a while). $200
5. Front brake pads and rotors need to be replaced. (Definitely can tell they’re worn). $350
Plus.... we need a new windshield due to a spreading crack. $200 So with tax/etc. this totals $5500 worth of repairs on a car worth $2100 on blue book. Although the quotes on some of these things are much higher than at the other shop.
Still considering fixing it (in the most economical way we can find) but the biggest thing I’m worried about is with it being an older car, am I going to put all this money into it, only to have more expensive repairs needed every couple of years?
Location: San Ramon, Seattle, Anchorage, Reykjavik
2,254 posts, read 2,737,417 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puff5655
Still considering fixing it (in the most economical way we can find) but the biggest thing I’m worried about is with it being an older car, am I going to put all this money into it, only to have more expensive repairs needed every couple of years?
I'd rather fix an older car I know and like than buy a another (new or used), within limits. I haven't heard anything regarding this car that would change that.
I’m back. Just got a quote from another shop that is more reputable and specializes in Subaru’s. Not great news. We had a more thorough inspection done which means more problems were found.
1. They confirmed that the charcoal canister is one of the issues with the gas pump shutting off prematurely. Plus the filler neck is damaged. $600
Charcoal cannister is readily accessible under the rt rear of the car. It's held on by a couple of bolts and the hoses with clamps. Literally, a matter of a couple minutes to remove this item. RockAuto shows a Subie OE item at $282, but aftermarket items (of excellent quality, Airtex brand) at $130.
The way I verify that the cannister is bad is to disconnect the breather hose from the filler neck to the cannister. If the fuel fill problem is cured by doing this, then the cannister is saturated and needs replacement. With so many used Subie's in the wrecking yards, I checked on the price of a serviceable used item yesterday when I was at my local "pick 'n save" boneyard … $15.00. Buying a new Subaru OE cannister for a 175,000 mile car doesn't make economic sense to me.
Absent pictures of the damage to the filler neck, it's hard to envision what the problem there may be. In any event, this again is a readily available item for minimal cost from the wrecking yards. Again, with a car of this vintage/mileage … it doesn't make economic sense to buy a new item here.
2. Head gasket oil leak is worse than we thought. Lost 2 quarts of oil in a few weeks. Confirmed head gasket needs replaced. $2700
Again, the known head gasket failure mode for this 2.5 engine is an external anti-freeze leak, not an engine oil leak. In my experience, the valve cover gaskets/seals and (sometimes) the camshaft seals are the source of an external oil leak. Just for grins, I searched on-line for another source re this oil leak problem … in this case, "just answer" had a thread about another 2004 Subie 2.5 liter top end engine oil leak. Here's their "Subie expert" response:
"Subaru Mechanic: George H.
Hello I will help you with your question,
If it is only oil leaking it is likely the valve cover gaskets or front cam/crank seals that are leaking. Look above the exhaust pipe on the passengers side for leaking oil. You should be able to see if it is the valve cover or the head that is leaking. You may have to clean the area with spray brake cleaner and run the engine to look for fresh oil.
If the front center of the timing cover is wet the cam/crank seals are likely leaking as well."
I have never seen an exterior engine oil leak from the cylinder head gasket on this series of Subie engine. I have, however, seen numerous high mileage Subie valve cover gaskets and seals leak. The reason that so many shops "cure" the engine oil leak with a cylinder head gasket replacement is due to replacing the valve cover gaskets/seals at that service.
But let's look at the real costs of doing this project IF the head gaskets truly do need replacement:
Just for reference, RockAuto lists REMANUFACTURED cylinder heads for this engine at $241., each (plus a $100 refundable core charge when the old heads are sent back to them). These are complete heads right down to the camshaft and valve gear, assembled and ready to install on the motor. Add in about $225 for a quality cylinder head & top end gasket/seal set and new cylinder head bolt sets and you're at (I like FelPro, but there's Mahle and a number of other high quality aftermarket items available at comparable pricing) well under $1,000 for the major components and misc gaskets/seals/hose clamps & hoses that are needed to accomplish this job. Please note that these are the RETAIL prices.
OK, so your "subie specialist" shop is essentially now quoting $1,700 labor to R&R the engine, remove the cylinder heads, clean up the block decks, and install/assemble the engine with the cylinder heads. At $100/hour shop labor rate, that's 17 hours to do this work. Ah … I smell a big rat here, somewhere. My techs routinely drop a Subie engine out of the car in less than a hour and reinstall it in not much more time than that. The Subie specialist shop I currently use does a cylinder head replacement job on one of these cars in an afternoon and the guys aren't pressed too hard to do this. That's 4-5 hours of real time, with one tech doing most of the work, assisted here and there with another tech for a few minutes. These engines simply don't have that many fasteners to remove for the exhausts, motor mounts, peripherals, bell housing, hoses, and electrical connectors. Access is reasonable to all these items, too. Even in my "older and slower" days now, I can still do this work in less than a shop day's time … and that includes refilling all the fluids, test running the engine and topping all the fluids, etc.
Remember, I'm looking at doing this job with REMANUFACTURED cylinder heads; ie, heads that are reconditioned to "as new" performance specs in accordance with Subaru dimensions and specs. IF your "subie specialist" shop is only removing the existing heads and cleaning them up for reinstall, then you're not getting anywhere near the quality of workmanship and complete work that I'm quoting you here. This is the reality of many subie head gasket replacement jobs … the shops just scrape/sand off the old gasket surfaces and check to see that the deck surface is flat within subie specs (0.002"). Even then, they may just have the head gasket surface milled to be flat and not do anything with the rest of the head such as grind the valves and cut the seats, installing new valve guide seals. Such work is still not the same as a REMANUFACTURED head assembly, but it can be quite serviceable for many miles.
At the price you've been quoted for this work, it's simply "way out of line" with any numbers that make sense for the project. But perhaps it's the "prevailing" rate in your area, IDK.
3. Confirmed power steering system has cracks leaking steering fluid, bad enough to need replacing the whole thing. $1050
"cracks"? where? was this vehicle in an accident?
again, let's look at RockAuto as a supplier for guideline pricing. I've used a couple of their Cardone REMANUFACTURED rack/pinion steering assemblies with excellent results: $160 (+ $100 refundable core charge). The reman PS pump? $66.79, or an AC Delco one for $77. The rack is a PIA to replace, but a couple of hours is usually sufficient to do so … especially if you have a 2nd set of hands to assist locating it in place and guiding the hoses for a couple of moments while doing the work. The PS pump is a matter of minutes to R&R with it's very easy access at the top of the motor. For both units to be physically damaged beyond service is a most unlikely combination of events. So, which is it?
4. Front sway bar link needs to be replaced. (Causing the rattling noise we’ve noticed for a while). $200
I've replaced several of these links with better than OE parts at $16/link, labor in a matter of minutes on the hoist. But usually the links are breaking apart because the sway bar has been bent by running into something like a parking lot concrete stop or similar road damage. IOW, you can replace the broken link but it will break again soon due to the unusual angle/stress that it's subjected to.
I've got several of these bent sway bars sitting in my scrap metal pile right now. When compared to a "good" sway bar, the difference in the way they sit is readily apparent, the ends are a couple inches apart from an undamaged sway bar. The "tip-off" that the sway bar on your car is bent is when you go to install the new link, you find that the sway bar just doesn't want to line up without persuading it to all line up with a jack under the sway bar; when the car is on the hoist, the suspension drops into a position where the sway bar will closely line up with all the components without having to be forced into position. Again, my suggestion would be to compare the sway bar on your car to one from a wrecking yard … which is where I've gotten my replacement units for $15 each.
5. Front brake pads and rotors need to be replaced. (Definitely can tell they’re worn). $350
Better than OE quality brake pads (your choice, ceramic or semi-metallic) and high quality rotor "kits" (two rotors and new pads) are about $125. Dropping the front wheels and removing the caliper from the bracket and removing the bracket is but a matter of minutes on these cars. They're a very simple item to remove/replace. And I'm a stickler for installing the lug nuts by hand and using a torque wrench to tighten them because these are an easy car to way overtorque the lug nuts which warps the rotors on these cars. IMO, $225 labor to replace these items is way beyond a reasonable charge … sorry, but this is just such a simple project on these cars. There's no complex items to disassemble here and the time it takes to wire brush out the caliper sliding components to be sure everything works properly is a matter of minutes.
Plus.... we need a new windshield due to a spreading crack. $200 So with tax/etc. this totals $5500 worth of repairs on a car worth $2100 on blue book. Although the quotes on some of these things are much higher than at the other shop.
As you can by now see, I'm somewhat astounded by the quotes you're getting to keep this car on the road. IMO, you're not being well served by the shops you've consulted with so far. I appreciate that the guys need to make money and no doubt have higher overhead expenses than I do in my shop … but there comes a point where their mark-ups and labor charges appear to be unreasonably excessive.
It's hard to justify putting over double the value of the 175,000 mile car into repairs to keep it on the road for only another few years of service. IF you were in my shop and were faced with all these major repairs and expense, I'd be advising you that the economic service life of this car was at an end. Much as I'd like to bank the profits from keeping your car on the road, it's not good business IMO to steer you into putting way more money into a car than it's worth. Look at it from this point: if you had an accident with this car in the near term, what would your insurance pay-out be? or, perhaps … another major component failure, such as a transmission or AWD system component failure requiring substantial expense?
IMO, if you can't get better service support than this in your local marketplace, you'd be better off to take that $5,500 and your car in trade for a new Subie rather than keeping this one on the road. Bear in mind that there's been a substantial number of improvements made since the 2004 model. Personally, I've moved on from that early 2000's series to 2007 (next generation) models and couldn't be happier. Mine are now at 225,000 and 180,000 miles and giving splendid service … with much improved AWD in inclement weather driving conditions and better fuel economy. The next generations appear to be even better, so when my current Subie's are no longer economically justified … I'll be replacing them with yet newer models.
Location: San Ramon, Seattle, Anchorage, Reykjavik
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Where do you live in AK? I know of several Subie repair shops on the Peninsula that should be a lot cheaper than those quotes. Heck seems like half the cars in Homer are old Subarus and someone is doing the work for a reasonable price keeping them on the road.
We live in Dillingham but the car is in Talkeetna with a friend. These quotes are from places in Wasilla. We're moving down to the lower 48 in a couple months so we decided it's probably best to let this car go. Great info, sunsprit. Our friend will be buying this car from us and I passed along all your info to her.
I like what you're saying about the 2007 and up models, especially the performance on bad roads. Any makes/models/years to stay away from? Would like a Forester again, or an Outback. Might look at the Tribecas as well.
I like what you're saying about the 2007 and up models, especially the performance on bad roads. Any makes/models/years to stay away from? Would like a Forester again, or an Outback. Might look at the Tribecas as well.
If you’ve been satisfied with a Forester, I think you’d do well to stay on the same track.
I prefer OBW’s, but it’s the ergonomics/space/utility that favor it for me. I tow a small boat trailer from time to time and we haul livestock (sheep and lambs) to the vet in ours (the “lambulance”). Came back once from a sale barn with 6 goats in the back, folks were passing us and somewhat startled by seeing them there.
Two things Subie has that don’t work well for me: 1) the variable ratio transmission doesn’t give me the conflidence in rural road driving/inclement weather conditions that their manuals or conventional auto transmissions, and 2) the PZEW engine series. The additional maintenance and complexity of the PZEW just doesn’t pencil out for me.
Nor do I like the trade-off of inclement driving utility with their 6-cylinder engine. The increases in dry road performance are offset by the lesser fuel economy. Again, these don’t pencil out for my rural travels and 6months of inclement driving conditions here in the Rocky Mountains.
Tribeca’s present an entirely different utility compared to the OBW. These don’t meet my needs, so I’ll pass on them. Kinda’ an offering from Subie that falls into the same category as their high performance turbo’ed models, these are for an entirely different marketplace.
Of course, if you’re headed to an area with a milder climate and the size/shape/performance of the sport models appeal to you, then these are a potent inexpensive buy compared to their competitors. As well, if you’re headed to more city/urban driving, the PZEW and variable trans improved fuel economy may be suitable for your requirements.
Thanks for the kind words. I hope your buyer can get plenty more use out of the car without breaking the bank.
We live in Dillingham but the car is in Talkeetna with a friend. These quotes are from places in Wasilla. We're moving down to the lower 48 in a couple months so we decided it's probably best to let this car go. Great info, sunsprit. Our friend will be buying this car from us and I passed along all your info to her.
I like what you're saying about the 2007 and up models, especially the performance on bad roads. Any makes/models/years to stay away from? Would like a Forester again, or an Outback. Might look at the Tribecas as well.
Ascent has replaced the Tribeca in the lineup, released in the last year.
Two things Subie has that don’t work well for me: 1) the variable ratio transmission doesn’t give me the conflidence in rural road driving/inclement weather conditions that their manuals or conventional auto transmissions, and 2) the PZEW engine series. The additional maintenance and complexity of the PZEW just doesn’t pencil out for me.
We have had no issues with our Outback's Lineartronic CVT. It does just fine off the beaten path and in the winter. As for the PZEV version, I'm not aware about anything drastically different about them. They were made primarily for the Cali market, so a little cleaner burning.
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