Keep Interstate Highways 81 & 690 For Good Traffic Flow For ALL AREA Residents, Industry, Visitors, & Commerce (Buffalo: real estate, how much)

[grdnrman]

To all those people who hate to see progress such as adequate expressway highway systems like Interstates 81 & 690 existing/constructed running through downtown Syracuse, I say please step into the 21st century or be left in the outdated horse & buggy days/economy/world. Stop fighting the future and logical progress. If you don't support/embrace enlightened progress like expressways, YOU and YOUR CITY will be LEFT BEHIND while other nearby cities PASS YOU BY on THEIR WAY to prosperty! Industries & development, JOBS, commerce, tourism, will go to other nearby more modern, forward thinking, enlightened, energetic cities. Gone are the rutted mud "cow-path" roads, the wood plank roads, and similar of "yesteryear"-the past. Nostalgic or romantic thoughts of a slower paced, more relaxed time, bygone era in the past are just that=dreamy romanticism. Oh yes, wouldn't we be so much better off if> we were still chopping wood for heating fuel, using candles for light, taking the horse and wagon if we travelled to Boston, we all went out and shot wild game for food, if we washed clothes by hand in a tub, OR to bring it a little closer to nowdays> if there were no microwave ovens, no dishwasher machines, no automatic clothes washers & dryers, no vacuum cleaners, no air conditioning, no modern medicine, no modern farm tractors & equipment, no computers, no assembly line manufacturing, no expressway highway systems to efficiently move traffic & commerce=food/manufactured goods/emergency vehicles/tourism/etc. Yeah, I just LONG to waste my time, money, & energy WITHOUT modern conveniences & waste my time, Gasoline, & money driving on antiquated slow or barely moving traffic jammed two lane NON-expressway highways.

Let's get/adopt a serious, educated, enlightened, & logical outlook about Interstates 81 & 690 that run through downtown Syracuse rather than long for/cherish/dream about a nostalgic view of life from the 1930's & 1940's before today's expressway highway systems existed. Simply stated, we need to keep (NOT TEAR DOWN) Interstates 81 & 690 running through downtown Syracuse. When I tell friends in Boston or Toronto that some people in Syracuse are actually talking about removing expressways in downtown Syracuse (please excuse the following), my friends say, "Are they crazy? Do they want everybody to avoid travelling to Syracuse? Who's the XXXXX suggesting that? Nobody wants to waste their time, Gasoline, & money travelling to some city that makes it difficult to get around!"

[bad robot]

LOL...are people really fighting a good infrastructure? I miss CNY for many reasons, but this isn't one of them...
Keep fighting the good fight

[ckhthankgod]

I think the reason behind the possibility of taking down that part of I-81 has to do wtih pollution in terms of the housing close by, the life of that part of the highway is almost up, the traffic would use what is 481 as 81 around the city and there are actually examples of other cities(Milwaukee and I believe Providence), that have torn down parts of highways and it has worked by replacing it with a boulevard or another type of road that is more pedestrian friendly and asthetically pleasing. I'm not sure how it would work here, but something either way has to be done.

[vicarian]

Originally Posted by grdnrman

To all those people who hate to see progress such as adequate expressway highway systems like Interstates 81 & 690 existing/constructed running through downtown Syracuse, I say please step into the 21st century or be left in the outdated horse & buggy days/economy/world. Stop fighting the future and logical progress. If you don't support/embrace enlightened progress like expressways, YOU and YOUR CITY will be LEFT BEHIND while other nearby cities PASS YOU BY on THEIR WAY to prosperty! Industries & development, JOBS, commerce, tourism, will go to other nearby more modern, forward thinking, enlightened, energetic cities. Gone are the rutted mud "cow-path" roads, the wood plank roads, and similar of "yesteryear"-the past. Nostalgic or romantic thoughts of a slower paced, more relaxed time, bygone era in the past are just that=dreamy romanticism. Oh yes, wouldn't we be so much better off if> we were still chopping wood for heating fuel, using candles for light, taking the horse and wagon if we travelled to Boston, we all went out and shot wild game for food, if we washed clothes by hand in a tub, OR to bring it a little closer to nowdays> if there were no microwave ovens, no dishwasher machines, no automatic clothes washers & dryers, no vacuum cleaners, no air conditioning, no modern medicine, no modern farm tractors & equipment, no computers, no assembly line manufacturing, no expressway highway systems to efficiently move traffic & commerce=food/manufactured goods/emergency vehicles/tourism/etc. Yeah, I just LONG to waste my time, money, & energy WITHOUT modern conveniences & waste my time, Gasoline, & money driving on antiquated slow or barely moving traffic jammed two lane NON-expressway highways.

Nice use of hysterics. You sound just like a politician, and that's not a compliment.

Let's get/adopt a serious, educated, enlightened, & logical outlook about Interstates 81 & 690 that run through downtown Syracuse rather than long for/cherish/dream about a nostalgic view of life from the 1930's & 1940's before today's expressway highway systems existed. Simply stated, we need to keep (NOT TEAR DOWN) Interstates 81 & 690 running through downtown Syracuse. When I tell friends in Boston or Toronto that some people in Syracuse are actually talking about removing expressways in downtown Syracuse (please excuse the following), my friends say, "Are they crazy? Do they want everybody to avoid travelling to Syracuse? Who's the XXXXX suggesting that? Nobody wants to waste their time, Gasoline, & money travelling to some city that makes it difficult to get around!"

I forgot, so many people who are on 81 and 690 drive into Syracuse and are suddenly compelled to take the off-ramp.

I have the strong inclination to believe you're only getting your panties in a bunch because Cicero is a twenty-minute drive up 81 from downtown Syracuse. Next time, if you want to make an effective argument, instead of citing "my friends", how about looking up some of the arguments of the other side (in this case, people who want the highway taken down) and put your mind to work trying to refute those arguments. It might be more effective. Here, I took the care of looking a couple up for you so you can practice:

If it's such a bad thing, why are so many cities--- from Oklahoma City to Nashville to Buffalo and Syracuse--- considering removing interstate highways from their inner cores?

An Argument from the article:
Some say it will spur development by placing less emphasis on suburban areas and will bring a renewed focus to blighted areas, which are isolated by interstate highways.

Here's another article. It was very effective for Portland. What obstacles exist to prevent it from working in Syracuse (initial cost could be an argument, but then, the highways are nearing the end of its working lives and has to rebuilt in some form)

There are plenty of arguments you can make. I look forward to your "educated, enlightened and logical" response. If you have one.

[CUPlanner]

To all those people who hate to see progress such as adequate expressway highway systems like Interstates 81 & 690 existing/constructed running through downtown Syracuse, I say please step into the 21st century or be left in the outdated horse & buggy days/economy/world. Stop fighting the future and logical progress. If you don't support/embrace enlightened progress like expressways, YOU and YOUR CITY will be LEFT BEHIND while other nearby cities PASS YOU BY on THEIR WAY to prosperty! Industries & development, JOBS, commerce, tourism, will go to other nearby more modern, forward thinking, enlightened, energetic cities.

First of all, no one is talking about taking down all of 690 and 81 through Syracuse. The only part in the discussion is the 1.5-mile-long I-81 viaduct that separates SU from downtown. That's it.

Second, the Interstate System was an invention of the early to mid 20th century. It is not "the latest" in 21st century planning thought and infrastructure development. The Germans have had the autobahn since the mid 1930's, which is where the idea came from, and our system was built from the 1950's through the 1970's.

Third, as Vicarian stated, some of the most "energetic" and "enlightened" cities in the country have taken down much larger parts of their system, including Portland and San Francisco, and Boston put a large part of their underground. It is what your city and downtown has to offer that brings people in, not the 5 minute difference between taking the Interstate versus a boulevard or parkway.

Fourth, the 81 viaduct currently limits accessibility from SU to downtown and vice versa. If you have ever tried to take any form of transportation under 81 between the two, and especially if you have tried to walk, you will know how much of a pain it is to get between the two. It seems unfathomable to me that eliminating or reducing a major physical barrier between downtown and the city's largest employer won't help stimulate downtown. The easier it is for students (20,000+ in number who often don't have cars) to get to downtown, the more likely it is they will make the trip.

Finally, I agree with Vicarian about the people who are complaining about the proposed options. The only people I have read anything from or spoken with who oppose altering the 81 viaduct are people from Cicero, North Syracuse and Clay. I apologize if changes to the 81 viaduct, which quite frankly shouldn't affect travel time between downtown's center and the North, add 5 minutes to your drive (which is unlikely).

[Becca8377]

I'm actually working on the public participation part of the 81 project. I'll know alot more after we have our first meeting. What I do know is that there are many options as to what to do with 81. Like someone said before, it's reaching the end of its usable life, so now is the time to explore those options and figure out what to do with it.

[ki0eh]

I think a big part of the reason why highway removal has worked in other cities is that in, say, SF, Boston, or Milwaukee the highway was a barrier between the city and a recreational asset and freed up relatively high value real estate. I can't see quite the same dynamic at work in Syracuse.

A thought I just had, after seeing NYC's The High Line earlier this year, is that perhaps a part of the overhead structure could be saved for a multi-use trail. The useful life of the bridge bearings is of course negatively affected by the road condiments and dynamic loading. Removing the constant deicing and most of the loading could extend the life of the structure. Removing half its width and the on and off ramps would allow more traffic lanes below but keeping the overhead would allow cyclists and pedestrians to get by what would become more of a physical (vs. the current psychological) barrier to passing between the SU Hill and downtown. The old NYC station could be repurposed as a visitor center to the Salt City high line network.

Edit: Adding another thought, perhaps OnTrack could be revived and extended into the northern suburbs with maybe a 15 minute headway at reasonable commute times and 30 minutes during the day and into the evening, with of course a connection to an airport bus at an appropriate location. The former "SU" station (should have been called ESF ) is not well located of course, but if the former I-81 were a walking path then rail commuting to the medical complex becomes a possibility by adding a 5-10 minute flat walk at the end on the high line trail.

[ckhthankgod]

Originally Posted by ki0eh

I think a big part of the reason why highway removal has worked in other cities is that in, say, SF, Boston, or Milwaukee the highway was a barrier between the city and a recreational asset and freed up relatively high value real estate. I can't see quite the same dynamic at work in Syracuse.

A thought I just had, after seeing NYC's The High Line earlier this year, is that perhaps a part of the overhead structure could be saved for a multi-use trail. The useful life of the bridge bearings is of course negatively affected by the road condiments and dynamic loading. Removing the constant deicing and most of the loading could extend the life of the structure. Removing half its width and the on and off ramps would allow more traffic lanes below but keeping the overhead would allow cyclists and pedestrians to get by what would become more of a physical (vs. the current psychological) barrier to passing between the SU Hill and downtown. The old NYC station could be repurposed as a visitor center to the Salt City high line network.

Edit: Adding another thought, perhaps OnTrack could be revived and extended into the northern suburbs with maybe a 15 minute headway at reasonable commute times and 30 minutes during the day and into the evening, with of course a connection to an airport bus at an appropriate location. The former "SU" station (should have been called ESF ) is not well located of course, but if the former I-81 were a walking path then rail commuting to the medical complex becomes a possibility by adding a 5-10 minute flat walk at the end on the high line trail.

I would think that would be considered, as there was supposed to be a stop at the transportation center and Baseball Stadium near Carousel Center.

Also, another possibility could be to reroute traffic to the West Street arterial to Adams Street and get to the Hill that way from the North. It is interesting how the Near West Side is trying to reinvent itself right now and is getting some businesses to relocate there. I'm not sure if West Street could hold the traffic or if it should be rerouted there either. Maybe another exit off of 690 is possible for say University Ave can be considered as the BioTech Center and Center of Excellence are in that area and it could lead to the University Hill area.

[ki0eh]

Good point about the West Street arterial, that's always seemed under-used. To be honest all the highways are under-used in Syracuse applying national standards. Probably only Rochester can vie with Syracuse for being over-highwayed, comparatively.

[ckhthankgod]

Originally Posted by ki0eh

Good point about the West Street arterial, that's always seemed under-used. To be honest all the highways are under-used in Syracuse applying national standards. Probably only Rochester can vie with Syracuse for being over-highwayed, comparatively.

I think that is because those cities have infrastructure set up for more people. I remember looking at a town of Onondaga report from 1967 in which the county was setting itself up for infrastructure for 600,000 people. So, that number is probably what the infrastructure was set up for. You can view this report at the Onondaga Free Library, by the way.