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Either that or we need, for the anti-viaduct people like myself, a developer to come and put money down on some projects next to the viaduct, contingent upon the highway coming down. Right now, all the viaduct people hear is 'if you build it, they will come,' and if I were them, I would also be saying 'show me.'
I can see both sides of this debate. While I agree that the current viaduct is hideous and I-81 should never have been built through the center of the city, I am not convinced that a more aesthetically pleasing urban boulevard will improve the economic fortunes of the city and region. In the early years of its existence, one could argue that the highway divided a more prosperous side of town from the historically impoverished section of the South Side on the on the other end of I-81. As demographics shifted and the regional economy collapsed, the stretch of East Colvin Street immediately east of I-81 and the area surrounding Oakwood Cemetery is nearly as blighted and poor as the other side of the viaduct. The urban decay was not a result of I-81 but regional and global economic forces coupled with incompetent leadership at the city, county, and state level. As you correctly noted, a missing link to this whole I-81 drama has been a lack of commitment from developers, businesses, and other stakeholders. I think many people (myself included) could be convinced of the benefits of removing the I-81 viaduct if there were actual projects and firm commitments from developers and businesses that would locate in the immediate area and create good paying jobs. It is my understanding that the redevelopment in Milwaukee took more than a decade following the demolition of the viaduct in that city. Syracuse no longer has large corporations like Milwaukee's Harley Davidson that would bring much needed viability to a project. SUNY Upstate and SU, in particular, no longer seem interested in being economic anchors of the community. I immediately think back to the mess that is the vacant Kennedy Square lot. We were told that Loguen's Crossing was going to be a new neighborhood of businesses, market rate residences, and urban retail. SUNY Upstate was going to be a major anchor tenant and help recruit businesses to the area. Nearly four years later, that project is dead and many cynics believe the same outcome will happen with the land surrounding I-81. In another city with a favorable business climate, committed developers, strong leadership, and supportive businesses, I could see a scenario in which the demolition of the highway would lead to an urban renaissance. I just don't see that happening here considering the current political and economic climate.
I can see both sides of this debate. While I agree that the current viaduct is hideous and I-81 should never have been built through the center of the city, I am not convinced that a more aesthetically pleasing urban boulevard will improve the economic fortunes of the city and region. In the early years of its existence, one could argue that the highway divided a more prosperous side of town from the historically impoverished section of the South Side on the on the other end of I-81. As demographics shifted and the regional economy collapsed, the stretch of East Colvin Street immediately east of I-81 and the area surrounding Oakwood Cemetery is nearly as blighted and poor as the other side of the viaduct. The urban decay was not a result of I-81 but regional and global economic forces coupled with incompetent leadership at the city, county, and state level. As you correctly noted, a missing link to this whole I-81 drama has been a lack of commitment from developers, businesses, and other stakeholders. I think many people (myself included) could be convinced of the benefits of removing the I-81 viaduct if there were actual projects and firm commitments from developers and businesses that would locate in the immediate area and create good paying jobs. It is my understanding that the redevelopment in Milwaukee took more than a decade following the demolition of the viaduct in that city. Syracuse no longer has large corporations like Milwaukee's Harley Davidson that would bring much needed viability to a project. SUNY Upstate and SU, in particular, no longer seem interested in being economic anchors of the community. I immediately think back to the mess that is the vacant Kennedy Square lot. We were told that Loguen's Crossing was going to be a new neighborhood of businesses, market rate residences, and urban retail. SUNY Upstate was going to be a major anchor tenant and help recruit businesses to the area. Nearly four years later, that project is dead and many cynics believe the same outcome will happen with the land surrounding I-81. In another city with a favorable business climate, committed developers, strong leadership, and supportive businesses, I could see a scenario in which the demolition of the highway would lead to an urban renaissance. I just don't see that happening here considering the current political and economic climate.
Running 81 through the city may not have been the best idea, but now, the city NEEDS an efficient way to get into and out of downtown.
We're trying to revive downtown, but people seem to think taking out the FREEWAY and replacing it with a boulevard with 20 stoplights is a good idea? I just don't understand their logic. But, then again, I have to commute every day and I have lived in a city where there is a boulevard. It just doesn't work - no matter now "pretty" it is.
This article Syracuse.com also has good points - it will cut off the outer comstock neighborhood. Oh , wait, that's right - you can just drive up Salina or State street and sit through 35 stop lights and risk getting shot.
I can see both sides of this debate. While I agree that the current viaduct is hideous and I-81 should never have been built through the center of the city, I am not convinced that a more aesthetically pleasing urban boulevard will improve the economic fortunes of the city and region. In the early years of its existence, one could argue that the highway divided a more prosperous side of town from the historically impoverished section of the South Side on the on the other end of I-81. As demographics shifted and the regional economy collapsed, the stretch of East Colvin Street immediately east of I-81 and the area surrounding Oakwood Cemetery is nearly as blighted and poor as the other side of the viaduct. The urban decay was not a result of I-81 but regional and global economic forces coupled with incompetent leadership at the city, county, and state level. As you correctly noted, a missing link to this whole I-81 drama has been a lack of commitment from developers, businesses, and other stakeholders. I think many people (myself included) could be convinced of the benefits of removing the I-81 viaduct if there were actual projects and firm commitments from developers and businesses that would locate in the immediate area and create good paying jobs. It is my understanding that the redevelopment in Milwaukee took more than a decade following the demolition of the viaduct in that city. Syracuse no longer has large corporations like Milwaukee's Harley Davidson that would bring much needed viability to a project. SUNY Upstate and SU, in particular, no longer seem interested in being economic anchors of the community. I immediately think back to the mess that is the vacant Kennedy Square lot. We were told that Loguen's Crossing was going to be a new neighborhood of businesses, market rate residences, and urban retail. SUNY Upstate was going to be a major anchor tenant and help recruit businesses to the area. Nearly four years later, that project is dead and many cynics believe the same outcome will happen with the land surrounding I-81. In another city with a favorable business climate, committed developers, strong leadership, and supportive businesses, I could see a scenario in which the demolition of the highway would lead to an urban renaissance. I just don't see that happening here considering the current political and economic climate.
I think the difference between east of 81 around Colvin and west of 81 around Colvin, is that the area east of 81 is due to different dynamics and the rates are quite a bit lower in terms of poverty. East of 81 around Colvin has half the family in poverty rate and about 75% of the household rate of the area west of 81. East of 81 also has more rentals due to the proximity to SU, but also has OK/decent, stable areas as well.
If you look at the housing information for both, East of 81 has less home vacancies, in spite of having a higher rental/lower owner occupied percentage(for obvious reasons). East: Census Tract 005500 in Onondaga County, New York Housing
What is interesting is that the census tract a little further east has the highest median household income on the East Side and as a census block group, only one other on that side of town has a higher median household income. So, there still is a divide there, to some degree.
Last edited by ckhthankgod; 10-01-2014 at 02:11 PM..
[quote=Miller88;36710871]Running 81 through the city may not have been the best idea, but now, the city NEEDS an efficient way to get into and out of downtown.
We're trying to revive downtown, but people seem to think taking out the FREEWAY and replacing it with a boulevard with 20 stoplights is a good idea? I just don't understand their logic. But, then again, I have to commute every day and I have lived in a city where there is a boulevard. It just doesn't work - no matter now "pretty" it is.
This article Syracuse.com also has good points - it will cut off the outer comstock neighborhood. Oh , wait, that's right - you can just drive up Salina or State street and sit through 35 stop lights and risk getting shot.[/quote]
Or take Comstock to Downtown. Also, Outer Comstock is very close to 481 and CAN be an option for some as well. I also have seen plenty of people that drive down Salina without getting shot at, as it doesn't work that way.
With this said and like a couple of other posters mentioned, there isn't a plan from the institutions that are currently near that portion of 81. So, that doesn't help the case for taking that portion of 81 out.
I think the difference between east of 81 around Colvin and west of 81 around Colvin, is that the area east of 81 is due to different dynamics and the rates are quite a bit lower in terms of poverty. East of 81 around Colvin has half the family in poverty rate and about 75% of the household rate of the area west of 81. East of 81 also has more rentals due to the proximity to SU, but also has OK/decent, stable areas as well.
If you look at the housing information for both, East of 81 has less home vacancies, in spite of having a higher rental/lower owner occupied percentage(for obvious reasons). East: Census Tract 005500 in Onondaga County, New York Housing
What is interesting is that the census tract a little further east has the highest median household income on the East Side and as a census block group, only one other on that side of town has a higher median household income. So, there still is a divide there, to some degree.
By most definitions, both areas are poor and run down. I agree that the west side of I-81 is worse, but a shiny new boulevard is not going to revitalize Syracuse absent a massive redevelopment effort on par with the Buffalo Billion. I would estimate it would cost at least $5 billion to clean up the city (and that's assuming that we have a proactive and competent mayor, county executive, county legislature and common council). People go where the jobs are and Syracuse is losing them at a breakneck place. The presence of viaduct has little bearing on whether businesses relocate or expand here. It has much more to do with the politicians, business climate, poor demographics, and existing workforce. It's true that a more attractive and vibrant city would help retain college graduates, however the availability of high paying jobs at forward thinking companies is key. You can dress up the city all you want with arts festivals, quirky events, and a bunch of eccentrics with tattoos and horned rimmed glasses, but once college students finish their degrees they are leaving because the quality and availability of jobs is very weak for a city of this size. I take no pleasure in writing this. I eagerly wait to read of positive news, a breakthrough that will change the direction of this area. Statistics on income, metro area poverty rates, educational attainment, and change in prime working age populations have yet to move in Syracuse's favor.
The I-81 project is being hijacked by organizations like CenterState CEO who have no record of accomplishment and are shooting darts at a board trying to find something that will stick. When indoor air quality jobs and the Center of Excellence idea failed, they shifted focus to a more generic green collar job movement and set up a greentech incubator at the Tech Garden. After that failed to generate enough momentum, they dumped a lot of resources into an entrepreneur boot camp. After receiving their checks from CenterState and their naïve investors, the businesses split town. The illusive inland container port was their next experiment. After awarding a lucrative state grant to a politically connected risk management firm, that project has stalled. At the same time, CenterState glommed onto the idea of exports, despite the fact that Syracuse has consistently trailed its peer cities- and continues to do so with CenterState's meddling. As if their standards for growth in CNY weren't low enough, they are now appealing to Chinese business people to visit Syracuse for medical tourism. This is a badly flawed idea because Syracuse has no nationally ranked hospitals and medical care is typically subpar when compared to other major upstate cities. A Chinese executive would be foolish to pay for a costly connecting flight to Syracuse (likely from New York or Chicago) when they can receive far better medical care in a major U.S city with a hub airport.
With I-81 running through a crime ridden and low income area, CenterState and Mayor Miner are trying to brand the project as a massive jobs and public works initiative that will drop gobs of money out of the sky to assist the poor souls living near the highway and create prosperity for small businesses with guaranteed contracts. Van Robinson believes the highway is akin to the Berlin Wall and if we throw some pixie dust in the air, wave a magic wand, clap our feet hard enough and promise new low income housing to the people living in Pioneer Homes (some residents have gone on record opposing the demolition of the viaduct), all of our problems will be solved. Local residents (including those living on both sides of the highway) are much smarter than people like Van Robinson, Bob Congel, Rob Simpson, Stephanie Miner, and Mark Nicotra would like to believe. I see a lot of hot air coming from both sides of the issue.
I'd also like to add, whatever happened to the Southeast Gateway project? Robinson and several other community leaders attended a taxpayer funded fact-finding trip to Queens and Harlem several years ago to brainstorm options for the project in Syracuse. I think he and several other politicians are using the I -81 project as a way to define their legacy and deflect attention from their inability to improve the South Side.
Last edited by RollsRoyce; 10-01-2014 at 05:25 PM..
Well I'm sure whatever happens, it is going to be a massive public works project. I am sure it will provide jobs to some, as well.
Neither (or none, I guess) of the options are going to help or hurt jobs. Contrary to what the commercials say, NY is *NOT* open to business - hence why they keep leaving.
If they truly wanted to help the South Side, they'd help the people of the South Side. Instead, they come up with these grand ideas which won't accomplish much other than provide a HUGE boost to their resume.
Well I'm sure whatever happens, it is going to be a massive public works project. I am sure it will provide jobs to some, as well.
Neither (or none, I guess) of the options are going to help or hurt jobs. Contrary to what the commercials say, NY is *NOT* open to business - hence why they keep leaving.
If they truly wanted to help the South Side, they'd help the people of the South Side. Instead, they come up with these grand ideas which won't accomplish much other than provide a HUGE boost to their resume.
Good point. I would add the soon-to-be opened "Chess Park" on South Salina to another the list of failures. The neighbors didn't want it as they were concerned it would attract dice games and criminal activity. If it was built in an affluent suburban neighborhood, I guarantee most people there would oppose it as well.
Good point. I would add the soon-to-be opened "Chess Park" on South Salina to another the list of failures. The neighbors didn't want it as they were concerned it would attract dice games and criminal activity. If it was built in an affluent suburban neighborhood, I guarantee most people there would oppose it as well.
Everyone knows the best place to shoot dice is in the grassy area next to the new Centro bus hub. Chess Park won't tear the criminal activity away from the barber shop across the street from there and the Middle East Market less than a block away.
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