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Old 01-12-2018, 05:32 AM
 
7 posts, read 3,015 times
Reputation: 20

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My partner and I are considering relocating to Syracuse from Europe (for a job offer), and I am trying to get a better sense of things as the move would be intended to be permanent. We are early 40s with two very young children.

We've visited Syracuse recently, briefly, and I have read almost every thread in this subforum, going back to 2007 or whenever it started. (A bit overkill probably, but I don't see the point of asking 'what's Syracuse like?', and making people like CKH repeat what they've already said so many times.) What I'd like to do is ask some very specific questions, questions informed by all that reading but that I don't think are already answered on the forum. This would be helpful for us but also should be helpful for others in the future.

The first questions are about taxes. I think taxes are generally great, they are the price of living in a civilised country, and it is a bonus for us that NY has high taxes relative to other states. I am confused however at how exactly taxes work in CNY. There seem to be county, town and village taxes, but then sometimes 'school district' taxes are mentioned separately. Is there any canonical list of total property taxes per 100,000 for main areas, such as:

Syracuse
Manlius Town
Manlius Village
Fayetteville (village)
Cazenovia
Cicero
etc.

I assume there should be some number per 100,000 for each of these places, representing total taxes with all the layered summed, but I haven't been able to find a list anywhere. Can anyone help?

Second, I am confused about how to estimate taxes on a house purchase. Many posts seem to say that houses are revalued after purchase, so if we paid $300,000 for a place where the valuation was currently $200,000, we should expect to the property to soon be revalued to $300,000. But other posts talk about the importance of buying a house where the valuation is low, e.g., where it is has successfully contested before. I don't see how these are really compatible....how does a low existing valuation help if the property would be revalued shortly after purchase to reflect true market value?

thanks

WBS
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Old 01-12-2018, 06:12 AM
 
52,622 posts, read 75,426,573 times
Reputation: 11627
Here is a guide through Onondaga County: Onondaga County Department of Real Property Taxes

Onondaga County Department of Real Property Taxes

Onondaga County Department of Real Property Taxes

What you see on listings is a culmination of these rates.

What people may be saying is that you can contest a home assessment. So, if it may be too
high, you can try to get it lowered and in turn, pay less in taxes due to rates. https://www.tax.ny.gov/pit/property/...ontestasmt.htm

You also have this to consider as well: https://www.tax.ny.gov/pit/property/star/types.htm

Hope this helps...
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Old 01-12-2018, 08:06 AM
 
172 posts, read 189,643 times
Reputation: 416
The re-vals depend on the muncipality. Some of them do it every year and some of them don't do a re-val every year. One thing in NY that they can't do is called "spot" assessing. I.e., they cannot take your house sale and only change your number. So, they need to do a full re-val to be able to take your sale amount in account. I would also say that in my experience the tax assessor will avoid going to the full purchase price of your house if it was greatly under assessed previously because they don't want it to look like they are spot-assessing. As an example, I bought a house for $230k, and it was assessed at $125k when we bought it (hadn't changed hands in 25 years). When the re-val came it, it got re-assessed at $200k. It was an older house, and they are generally harder to place a value on because it is all based on upkeep, and the assessors don't have the time or resources to really do inspections, so they use a sale as an indicator of how the house is being kept up.

You can search the current taxes on any house by entering the address here:

Onondaga:

Onondaga County Department of Real Property Taxes

Madison County:

http://property.madisoncounty.ny.gov...eb/search.aspx

It will also show you the sales history and what it has been assessed at over the years.

Best of luck!


Quote:
Originally Posted by WeeBirdiesSing View Post
My partner and I are considering relocating to Syracuse from Europe (for a job offer), and I am trying to get a better sense of things as the move would be intended to be permanent. We are early 40s with two very young children.

We've visited Syracuse recently, briefly, and I have read almost every thread in this subforum, going back to 2007 or whenever it started. (A bit overkill probably, but I don't see the point of asking 'what's Syracuse like?', and making people like CKH repeat what they've already said so many times.) What I'd like to do is ask some very specific questions, questions informed by all that reading but that I don't think are already answered on the forum. This would be helpful for us but also should be helpful for others in the future.

The first questions are about taxes. I think taxes are generally great, they are the price of living in a civilised country, and it is a bonus for us that NY has high taxes relative to other states. I am confused however at how exactly taxes work in CNY. There seem to be county, town and village taxes, but then sometimes 'school district' taxes are mentioned separately. Is there any canonical list of total property taxes per 100,000 for main areas, such as:

Syracuse
Manlius Town
Manlius Village
Fayetteville (village)
Cazenovia
Cicero
etc.

I assume there should be some number per 100,000 for each of these places, representing total taxes with all the layered summed, but I haven't been able to find a list anywhere. Can anyone help?

Second, I am confused about how to estimate taxes on a house purchase. Many posts seem to say that houses are revalued after purchase, so if we paid $300,000 for a place where the valuation was currently $200,000, we should expect to the property to soon be revalued to $300,000. But other posts talk about the importance of buying a house where the valuation is low, e.g., where it is has successfully contested before. I don't see how these are really compatible....how does a low existing valuation help if the property would be revalued shortly after purchase to reflect true market value?

thanks

WBS
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Old 01-12-2018, 08:45 AM
 
Location: Cazenovia, NY
24 posts, read 12,866 times
Reputation: 107
There used to be a searchable database on Syracuse.com that listed all municipalities/school district combos in CNY and their combined town/village/school taxes per $100k of fair market value. The data was a few years old, but still useful for comparison. If I recall, areas like Skaneateles(Town) and Cazenovia(Town) were among the lowest at around $2500-$2900 per $100k FMV, while Fayetteville(Village) and Manlius(Village) were among the highest at $3700-$4300 per $100k FMV.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WeeBirdiesSing View Post
My partner and I are considering relocating to Syracuse from Europe (for a job offer), and I am trying to get a better sense of things as the move would be intended to be permanent. We are early 40s with two very young children.

We've visited Syracuse recently, briefly, and I have read almost every thread in this subforum, going back to 2007 or whenever it started. (A bit overkill probably, but I don't see the point of asking 'what's Syracuse like?', and making people like CKH repeat what they've already said so many times.) What I'd like to do is ask some very specific questions, questions informed by all that reading but that I don't think are already answered on the forum. This would be helpful for us but also should be helpful for others in the future.

The first questions are about taxes. I think taxes are generally great, they are the price of living in a civilised country, and it is a bonus for us that NY has high taxes relative to other states. I am confused however at how exactly taxes work in CNY. There seem to be county, town and village taxes, but then sometimes 'school district' taxes are mentioned separately. Is there any canonical list of total property taxes per 100,000 for main areas, such as:

Syracuse
Manlius Town
Manlius Village
Fayetteville (village)
Cazenovia
Cicero
etc.

I assume there should be some number per 100,000 for each of these places, representing total taxes with all the layered summed, but I haven't been able to find a list anywhere. Can anyone help?

Second, I am confused about how to estimate taxes on a house purchase. Many posts seem to say that houses are revalued after purchase, so if we paid $300,000 for a place where the valuation was currently $200,000, we should expect to the property to soon be revalued to $300,000. But other posts talk about the importance of buying a house where the valuation is low, e.g., where it is has successfully contested before. I don't see how these are really compatible....how does a low existing valuation help if the property would be revalued shortly after purchase to reflect true market value?

thanks

WBS
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Old 01-12-2018, 11:30 AM
 
52,622 posts, read 75,426,573 times
Reputation: 11627
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9square View Post
There used to be a searchable database on Syracuse.com that listed all municipalities/school district combos in CNY and their combined town/village/school taxes per $100k of fair market value. The data was a few years old, but still useful for comparison. If I recall, areas like Skaneateles(Town) and Cazenovia(Town) were among the lowest at around $2500-$2900 per $100k FMV, while Fayetteville(Village) and Manlius(Village) were among the highest at $3700-$4300 per $100k FMV.
I think this is it: Compare property tax rates in every city, town, village, county, school district in New York state | NewYorkUpstate.com
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Old 01-13-2018, 07:09 AM
 
7 posts, read 3,015 times
Reputation: 20
Thanks all, those various links are extremely helpful. It is striking that the property tax system is so incredibly complicated, with not only multiple layers of taxation but with even 'county' rates varying from one place to another within a county.

It's also striking looking up past assessments how little house prices have moved (in at least the small sample I looked at) in the last 15 years. They're totally flat, which is a decline in real terms. Does anyone have a good sense of whether this is a sample error or whether that tends to be the case across the Syracuse area? (A few properties I looked at are now for sale for more than 10 percent less than they were purchased for 15 years ago.)

thanks again.
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Old 01-13-2018, 08:08 AM
 
52,622 posts, read 75,426,573 times
Reputation: 11627
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeeBirdiesSing View Post
Thanks all, those various links are extremely helpful. It is striking that the property tax system is so incredibly complicated, with not only multiple layers of taxation but with even 'county' rates varying from one place to another within a county.

It's also striking looking up past assessments how little house prices have moved (in at least the small sample I looked at) in the last 15 years. They're totally flat, which is a decline in real terms. Does anyone have a good sense of whether this is a sample error or whether that tends to be the case across the Syracuse area? (A few properties I looked at are now for sale for more than 10 percent less than they were purchased for 15 years ago.)

thanks again.
I think the variance within the county will depend on the character of the town. So, what Salina has is different than what Tully has, as the first is a largely built out first ring suburb and the latter is a general rural town with a small village and a little bit of relatively newer housing development.

Where in the area did you look?

Some towns in the area have added population and some haven't. So, that may play a part in that regard. Even in that case, it can be a matter of if it is an area in demand.

On the flipside, during the last recession, the area had one of the lowest foreclosure rates for top 100 metro, if not the lowest at one time. So, people are able to stay in their homes.

With this said, I'd say to look into the usuals like the Fayetteville-Manlius and Jamesville-DeWitt school districts to start off. I say that due to school reputation, its relative affluence, proximity to the hospitals/universities(especially J-D) and other factors.

A lot of this will depend on what you are looking for in terms of other aspects. Say if you want walkability, the villages of Fayetteville and Manlius would be good options between the 2 SD's mentioned above.

You may be interested in this article I just came across: Who Can Afford the Median-Priced Home in Their Metro? | Joint Center for Housing Studies, Harvard University

http://www.jchs.harvard.edu/sites/jc...207.1515859254

This is similar: https://www.nahb.org/en/research/hou...ity-index.aspx (the 4th section under current data)

Also in regards to something you mentioned in your last post: http://harvard-cga.maps.arcgis.com/a...4fd3dfd8645316

Last edited by ckhthankgod; 01-13-2018 at 09:19 AM..
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Old 01-15-2018, 08:43 AM
 
172 posts, read 189,643 times
Reputation: 416
You're right - housing prices in the Syracuse area do not move -- or at least very slowly. It is a frustrating consequence of having such a large percentage of your monthly mortgage payment going to taxes. The market simply cannot sustain rapid price growth, especially with so much raw land and new builds going up every day. I cannot imagine buying a new build home in Syracuse because they are so much more expensive than existing inventory.

Th other outcome, if you buy a house and want to renovate, it is very difficult to get your investment back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WeeBirdiesSing View Post
Thanks all, those various links are extremely helpful. It is striking that the property tax system is so incredibly complicated, with not only multiple layers of taxation but with even 'county' rates varying from one place to another within a county.

It's also striking looking up past assessments how little house prices have moved (in at least the small sample I looked at) in the last 15 years. They're totally flat, which is a decline in real terms. Does anyone have a good sense of whether this is a sample error or whether that tends to be the case across the Syracuse area? (A few properties I looked at are now for sale for more than 10 percent less than they were purchased for 15 years ago.)

thanks again.
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Old 01-15-2018, 10:02 AM
 
52,622 posts, read 75,426,573 times
Reputation: 11627
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonthedream View Post
You're right - housing prices in the Syracuse area do not move -- or at least very slowly. It is a frustrating consequence of having such a large percentage of your monthly mortgage payment going to taxes. The market simply cannot sustain rapid price growth, especially with so much raw land and new builds going up every day. I cannot imagine buying a new build home in Syracuse because they are so much more expensive than existing inventory.

Th other outcome, if you buy a house and want to renovate, it is very difficult to get your investment back.
There used to be a list of values with increases or decreases by town on syracuse.com. I'll try to post it if I can find it.

More info: Central New York Real Estate Transactions Database | Real Estate News -

Syracuse Real Estate: Search for Real Estate Listings in Syracuse at Syracuse.com
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Old 01-16-2018, 12:03 AM
 
7 posts, read 3,015 times
Reputation: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
I think the variance within the county will depend on the character of the town. So, what Salina has is different than what Tully has, as the first is a largely built out first ring suburb and the latter is a general rural town with a small village and a little bit of relatively newer housing development.

Where in the area did you look?


Some towns in the area have added population and some haven't. So, that may play a part in that regard. Even in that case, it can be a matter of if it is an area in demand.

On the flipside, during the last recession, the area had one of the lowest foreclosure rates for top 100 metro, if not the lowest at one time. So, people are able to stay in their homes.

With this said, I'd say to look into the usuals like the Fayetteville-Manlius and Jamesville-DeWitt school districts to start off. I say that due to school reputation, its relative affluence, proximity to the hospitals/universities(especially J-D) and other factors.

A lot of this will depend on what you are looking for in terms of other aspects. Say if you want walkability, the villages of Fayetteville and Manlius would be good options between the 2 SD's mentioned above.


You may be interested in this article I just came across: Who Can Afford the Median-Priced Home in Their Metro? | Joint Center for Housing Studies, Harvard University

http://www.jchs.harvard.edu/sites/jc...207.1515859254

This is similar: https://www.nahb.org/en/research/hou...ity-index.aspx (the 4th section under current data)

Also in regards to something you mentioned in your last post: http://harvard-cga.maps.arcgis.com/a...4fd3dfd8645316
Thanks again, those are amazing links. I am generally looking in the Westcott area, Dewitt, Fayetteville/Manlius and Caz. Here are some of the places that seem to have price drops relative to the past:

https://www.trulia.com/property/3054...novia-NY-13035

https://www.trulia.com/property/3152...novia-NY-13035

https://www.trulia.com/property/3172...novia-NY-13035

https://www.trulia.com/property/3036...ville-NY-13066

https://www.trulia.com/property/3036...ville-NY-13066

https://www.trulia.com/property/5032...acuse-NY-13224

https://www.trulia.com/property/3138...acuse-NY-13203

I just found those now in less than 5 minutes of looking. In each case, a substantial price drop (to the current asking price, which is higher than whatever it will eventually sell for) from the last sold price. In some cases the last sold was just a couple of years ago, in others it was back in 2006.

Obviously that's just a few houses and there will always be people who overpaid and then can't get back what they're selling for. But it sort of worries me that a flat (or worse, declining) property market is a hidden cost of moving to Syracuse. First, there's the fact that 20 or 30 years from now you have no equity compared to other places that had gaining property values, so options for moving/retiring/downsizing are limited. Second, even a flat market is a real loss of 2 or 3 percent a year (depending on inflation). On say a $300,000 house, that's a lot of money. Third, all these houses must have had thousands of dollars spent on them in the intervening years, if not for renovations and so on then at least for necessary maintenance, etc.

This ties in to the property tax issue because property taxes are roughly equal to the interest on a mortgage, meaning that Syracuse property could be thought of like this: You have to pay down your mortgage, plus you have to pay, forever, the equivalent of your mortgage on the value of your house (minus Star, which isn't that much).

I don't mean to be negative I'm not thinking through the situation.

In terms of what we're looking for, ideally walkability, racially and SES diverse schools, immediate neighbours with kids, immediate neighbours who are not too well off.

thanks again.
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