Holding a line on sprawl (New York, Buffalo: low income, best suburbs, real estate)

[justflow1983]

All those developments really make me shudder too. They should be putting those new apartment complexes into areas that are already developed; clear out some of the older housing stock and replace it on the same land. Theres an interesting statistic that the population of the Syracuse metro has been flat for 20 years, but the space it takes up has doubled! I know people want to live in new builds, but its just horrifying to keep using up new space for it when there is an overabundance of older housing stock.


All of those developments create traffic headaches, mean new roads, and higher taxes to pay for all of the extra infrustructure that is serving the same population. Not to mention the destruction of the older communities as they devolve into ghetto.

I grew up in an upscale new-build suburb.... very upscale. I live in Dublin, which is not much bigger than Syracuse, but where the people have rebuilt and redeveloped the same land in the center, replacing or renovating older stock, and even as the population doubled they managed to retain a lot of it in the same area as before. There was a rush of suburb-building which the government put a stop to by increasing taxes on builds that are on new land. The result is a vibrant, mixed-income city without the societal isolation that comes from living in a new McMansion with no sidewalks and 1 acre per person.

I for one, having left that rat-race, would never go back to it again. I'd rather send my kids to private school and live in a real city community than spend my life in a car and various subdivisions just to send them to FM.

[justflow1983]

Just to add, the upscale area I grew up in was a Syracuse suburb. I came to Dublin 2 years ago, before that I'd lived in CNY for 22 years.

[justflow1983]

I grew up in the town of Onondaga, my parents house is actually in one of bellafinzi's first set of photos. Its a great place, and Westhill schools were fantastic. My favorite part of it was that all of the big box stores were somewhere else, and it wasn't cluttered up with chain stores and parking lots. You can get to the big box stores in a 15 minute drive and downtown in 10 as long as you don't mind the view. I've never in my life had a problem driving through the ghetto to get downtown, but some people are more skittish.

That said, the "boxes on the moon" comment is pretty appropriate really. They're the same houses that are in the new developments in all of the other suburbs. My uncle's house in suburban Philly is in a neighborhood that looks the same too. If you want a new build, its as good a place as any, but its definitely kind of faceless. I think the biggest benefit of it is really just that it is close to the city yet not swallowed by the shopping-center garbage that has invaded the other suburbs.'

[ckhthankgod]

Originally Posted by justflow1983

I grew up in the town of Onondaga, my parents house is actually in one of bellafinzi's first set of photos. Its a great place, and Westhill schools were fantastic. My favorite part of it was that all of the big box stores were somewhere else, and it wasn't cluttered up with chain stores and parking lots. You can get to the big box stores in a 15 minute drive and downtown in 10 as long as you don't mind the view. I've never in my life had a problem driving through the ghetto to get downtown, but some people are more skittish.

That said, the "boxes on the moon" comment is pretty appropriate really. They're the same houses that are in the new developments in all of the other suburbs. My uncle's house in suburban Philly is in a neighborhood that looks the same too. If you want a new build, its as good a place as any, but its definitely kind of faceless. I think the biggest benefit of it is really just that it is close to the city yet not swallowed by the shopping-center garbage that has invaded the other suburbs.'

Exactly...I grew up on Onondaga Hill in one of the older neighborhoods and I agree with what you said. Most of the newer houses look similar and the location is great, but it's not as overdeveloped like other suburbs as well. I've also never had any problem driving through any parts of the city to downtown either. Actually, you can drive to the other side of the Valley and get on I-81 to go Downtown too, if people aren't comfortable driving through the city neighborhoods.

[justflow1983]

My ex girlfriend grew up on the upper east side in NYC and loved Syracuse when we visited. She thought Clinton Sq. reminded her of Paris (which ws where I met her). I don't think anyone downstate is going to chane their opinion of the 'cuse just because we have new suburbs. So does Detoit. What we have that suburban NYC metro area doesn't have is a sense of place. Its precisely this identity that we lose by building a faceless, flat suburbia. I don't know how showing pictures of that will convince someone from North Jersey that we have anything different to offer.

[proulxfamily]

Originally Posted by justflow1983

My ex girlfriend grew up on the upper east side in NYC and loved Syracuse when we visited. She thought Clinton Sq. reminded her of Paris (which ws where I met her). I don't think anyone downstate is going to chane their opinion of the 'cuse just because we have new suburbs. So does Detoit. What we have that suburban NYC metro area doesn't have is a sense of place. Its precisely this identity that we lose by building a faceless, flat suburbia. I don't know how showing pictures of that will convince someone from North Jersey that we have anything different to offer.

Bravo! (Brava?)

This is exactly what I try to explain to people but I've never been able to express it so well. Syracuse is the kind of place where you can belong. When I see suburbs pushed for their developments, it's somewhat upsetting. How on earth are miles and miles of cookie cutter neighborhoods a unique draw? Why buy new building here when you can buy in an area with lower taxes and warmer/sunnier weather? (And notice I didn't say nicer weather - I LOVE Syracuse's weather... the southeastern states' hot and blindingly sunny and buggy and humid cimate isn't "nice weather", in my opinion.) What's so hard to express is the feeling of being wanted... or missed. I cannot tell how much of an everyday thrill I get when I go out and about. I see someone I know or meet new people THROUGH someone I know, through friendly conversation, just about every time. The St. Patrick's Day parade, the great NY state fair, going for the first full walk of spring down the walkway at Onondaga Lake, dinner and drinks downtown that return to houses up in Westcott, Eastwood, and the 'burbs for parties, going to Green Lakes to burn yourself to a crisp and cooling off in the deep end, hiking through Highland Forest and Pratts Falls parks, free concerts and festivals and market fairs downtown, SSO's Concerts in the Park... especially on a breezy summer night, on the lawn of Lorenzo Mansion, surrounded by a thousand elegant wine picnics in the grass and little girls twirling around to the music in the soft light of dusk. Sensational. THAT is Syracuse's draw. Not some 3000sq. ft., 4bd, 4ba, media room from a builder's catalog. ugh - I can't believe that it even needs to be said. I'm not sure what kind of homes are standard to find in other markets but Syracuse has some truly stunning homes - SMALL homes included. Detailed woodwork, 100 year old stained glass window headers, stately staircases, fireplaces with all the glorious mouldings that frame that idyllic, bygone era, wide porches to actually SOCIALIZE with passersby... so why on earth so many are drawn to stock housing is beyond me. Yes- I can see how it's a draw for many people... but not everyone. Why pander to just that one demographic?

And if people want to work for a great company, do it the "American Way" - the old fashioned way. There are a million people here... find a need, then fulfill it. It's simple and requires work - a LOT of work - but the opportunity is there. And really, one will find that anywhere, you need to bust your a$$ if you want it all... moving to some magical location that supposedly makes all your dreams come true isn't the answer.

[justflow1983]

Originally Posted by bellafinzi

Person A has job offers in the Syracuse, Rochester and Albany areas. Person A visits each metro to check out places to live. Person A likes suburban Rochester more than suburban Syracuse or suburban Albany. Person A takes job in the Rochester area. The Syracuse area loses out on a highly talented professional just because there are better places to live outside of Rochester.
The Syracuse company is stuck with hiring Person B.

First of all, lets stop comparing ourselves to the city next door. If we really want Person A, we need to attract them from Charlotte, LA, Portland, New York, etc. Otherwise its all person Bs. If they move to Rochester, it won't be solely about the kind of house they can buy, although I'm sure it factors in. I can almost guarantee that there wouldn't be the same job in Syracuse and Roch offered to the same person at the same time anyway, both markets are just too small!

People perceive a city as a whole, regardless of whether they spend their lives in the suburbs or not; after all I say I'm from Syracuse when really I'm from Onondaga. When I was interviewed in dublin, they took me to a fantastic restaurant after the interview, showed me some cool neighborhoods, told me about its history. You need to get someone to fall in love with the city, and then of course the type of house they can buy matters. I was able to get a great apartment but it wasn't the dealbreaker. People move to Tampa because it sounds like fun, not because of the housing options.

I brought a friend of mine from Hong Kong to Syracuse, and he loved it. Even considered moving there. We went to dinosaur bbq and Ohm, and went skiing at Lab. Its all about selling the story of the city, and Syracuse falls short on that sometimes because a lot of the city itself is pretty abandoned. You don't solve that with new developments, but by investing in your core and then building more suburbs when you have a growing population to fill them. I think the best way to do it would be a "Move to Syracuse guide," from insiders, explaining the city, highlighting cool bars, hidden restaurants, and historical tidbits, and yes also housing options that include both city and suburb. Or even people who volunteer to drive people around and show them all about the place.

Back on topic.... Onondaga Hill is great!!!!

[momix5]

do you think they will ever put subdivisions in Pompey area?

[proulxfamily]

There *are* subdivisions in the Town of Pompey, though they're closer to LaFayette and Manlius.

[RollsRoyce]

Originally Posted by momix5

do you think they will ever put subdivisions in Pompey area?

There are several in the northern part of the town by the Manlius border. These include Pompey Pines which was built in the late 1980s and 1990s. Prices in this development are in the $225,000 to $375,000 range for homes between 2200 SF to just over 4000 SF. The Preserve is a newer development off Pompey Center Road with houses between 2400 SF and 4000 SF that generally sell in $300,000 and $400,000 range. While Pompey Pines was built in the middle of a forest with mature trees and is less visible from the road, the Preserve looks was likely built on farmland as there are no trees near the homes. Several other developments including Spruce Ridge South and Arbutus Park (adjacent to Pompey Pines) are under development with prices starting in the high $300s and topping off at $1 million in Spruce Ridge South. These neighborhoods in the northern section of Pompey fall under the Manlius zip code of 13104 and are in the Fayetteville-Manlius school district. Some non-tract homes in northeast Pompey have a Cazenovia address (zip code 13035) and are part of the Cazenovia School district. The rest of Pompey falls within the Fabius-Pompey School District.

Aside from one or two subdivisions in the central and southern parts of Pompey, the rest of the town is unlikely to sprawl due to the lack of sewers. Many believe this is a good thing as the town's hilly terrain offers amazing, unobstructed views. There are quite a few working dairy farms heading south toward Fabius.