Rethinking I-81 through Downtown Syracuse (New Haven, Hartford: population, drive, city)

[ckhthankgod]

Originally Posted by bellafinzi

Like the gentleman stated in today's Letter to the Editor.... transit in the Syracuse area needs an overhaul. The one suggestion he made that I liked was this...."complete a beltway around Syracuse on the westside that can be used to route traffic during the reconstruction of I-81 from Clay to the southern end of I-481."

Too bad Syracuse civic leadership is SOOOO obsessed with stopping any type of development outside the 25 sq miles we call the City of Syracuse for our community to even have a dialogue about a western highway loop.

That was suppose to be the case. If you take 690 West to 695 and get off at the Fairmount exit, look to your left before reaching West genesee Street. You will see what looks to be where a highway was suppose to bypass the whole city. I read something about this at the library in Onondaga Hill that was showing plans for the town of Onondaga in the late 60's, where I think this bypass was to go the route of what is Route 173. They were expecting a boom in that town in terms of development and population.

[bellafinzi]

Originally Posted by Sgoldie

The biggest concern for me other than direct access from north to south is that of being able to reach the hospitals quickly especially since they're all in the same area more or less right in the middle of town.

Agreed! The location of the hospitals could pose a problem. And trying to get from the northern suburbs to OCC could even become more difficult.

If Onondaga Community College and just one large hospital had been built in the northern suburbs of Syracuse it could have made life much easier for nearly 200,000 people (living in the northern burbs and southern Oswego).

For some reason, Syracuse civic leaders in the past and today never thought about serving the populated areas north of the Thruway with any hospitals, colleges, research centers or any other major institution or investment. Our leadership does seem quite content with stuffing all new investment into the city or adjoining burbs to the east or west. Probably all in the fear of "promoting sprawl".

I find the lack of regional thinking disturbing. It means that all decisions are made with the city in mind, not the over 450,000 people living in the rest of the Metropolitan area. Meaning, Syracuse is probably missing out on many great opportunities as a result of its' insular worldview.

[bellafinzi]

Originally Posted by ckhthankgod

That was suppose to be the case. If you take 690 West to 695 and get off at the Fairmount exit, look to your left before reaching West genesee Street. You will see what looks to be where a highway was suppose to bypass the whole city. I read something about this at the library in Onondaga Hill that was showing plans for the town of Onondaga in the late 60's, where I think this bypass was to go the route of what is Route 173. They were expecting a boom in that town in terms of development and population.

I read that Nick Pirro...our wonderful former CE....sold off the right of way to all the proposed highways that were never built. Meaning that land set aside for the full built out of the Camillus bypass (690 west), that was suppose to connect Syracuse with Auburn, was sold off under Nick Pirro's watch. In my humble opinion, that was very shortsighted. Hmm, what's new?

[Easybreezy]

Originally Posted by ckhthankgod
That was suppose to be the case. If you take 690 West to 695 and get off at the Fairmount exit, look to your left before reaching West genesee Street. You will see what looks to be where a highway was suppose to bypass the whole city. I read something about this at the library in Onondaga Hill that was showing plans for the town of Onondaga in the late 60's, where I think this bypass was to go the route of what is Route 173. They were expecting a boom in that town in terms of development and population.
I read that Nick Pirro...our wonderful former CE....sold off the right of way to all the proposed highways that were never built. Meaning that land set aside for the full built out of the Camillus bypass (690 west), that was suppose to connect Syracuse with Auburn, was sold off under Nick Pirro's watch. In my humble opinion, that was very shortsighted. Hmm, what's new?
I live in the Fairmount/Camillus area, and if Interstate 81 it will be a major inconvenience for those of us living west of the center city. Essentially we will be cut off from the rest of the area. We do not have anything like Rt 481, so getting to points north, south, would be very difficult. Also I cannot imagine what the city streets leading up to University Hospital, Crouse Hosp, SU, etc would be like if Interstate 81 wasn't there.

As for the neighborhoods that were destroyed 50 yrs ago with the advent of I81, unfortunately they are gone. They cannot be recreated as any neighborhood of 50 yrs ago could be recreated. We shouldn't feel guilty about this and shouldn't make decisions based on this guilt.

I do vaguely recall discussion of a beltway around Syracuse, in particular the west side. I believe the route was to buid that spur from 695, across West Genesee St(where the Fairmount Wegmans now sits), and through some neighborhoods, eventually going along the Grand Avenue area. That plan was scrapped, and the land sold, some of it for additional housing development. (If you look at some of the houses behind Wegmans Fairmount, you can see they were built later, that was the general area of the beltway.). And yes, the spot where the Fairmount Wegmans was supposed to be beltway.

The plan was scrapped as too expensive, and government was very eager to get rid of the land.

[bellafinzi]

Originally Posted by Easybreezy

I live in the Fairmount/Camillus area, and if Interstate 81 it will be a major inconvenience for those of us living west of the center city. Essentially we will be cut off from the rest of the area. We do not have anything like Rt 481, so getting to points north, south, would be very difficult. Also I cannot imagine what the city streets leading up to University Hospital, Crouse Hosp, SU, etc would be like if Interstate 81 wasn't there.

As for the neighborhoods that were destroyed 50 yrs ago with the advent of I81, unfortunately they are gone. They cannot be recreated as any neighborhood of 50 yrs ago could be recreated. We shouldn't feel guilty about this and shouldn't make decisions based on this guilt.

I do vaguely recall discussion of a beltway around Syracuse, in particular the west side. I believe the route was to buid that spur from 695, across West Genesee St(where the Fairmount Wegmans now sits), and through some neighborhoods, eventually going along the Grand Avenue area. That plan was scrapped, and the land sold, some of it for additional housing development. (If you look at some of the houses behind Wegmans Fairmount, you can see they were built later, that was the general area of the beltway.). And yes, the spot where the Fairmount Wegmans was supposed to be beltway.

The plan was scrapped as too expensive, and government was very eager to get rid of the land.

Yes, that small westside loop was scrapped decades ago. The planned highway from Camillus to Auburn was only scrapped after Nick Pirro came into office in the late 80s. The 690 extension from DeWitt to Chittenango was also dropped at that time... if I recall correctly.

If a new western loop is ever built (not likely) it will probably have be a much larger loop.... maybe out near Elbridge.

[ckhthankgod]

True, because if you look at 481 around the village of East Syracuse, you will notice that there was suppose to be a higway that went through the Fremont area of the East Syracuse-Minoa area. You can still see some of the infrastructure from that plan.

[acknight]

Originally Posted by ckhthankgod

That was suppose to be the case. If you take 690 West to 695 and get off at the Fairmount exit, look to your left before reaching West genesee Street. You will see what looks to be where a highway was suppose to bypass the whole city. I read something about this at the library in Onondaga Hill that was showing plans for the town of Onondaga in the late 60's, where I think this bypass was to go the route of what is Route 173. They were expecting a boom in that town in terms of development and population.

Yep. Chunks exist of what was to complete the 481 loop: John Glenn Blvd., 695 and the offramp to nowhere by what is now Wegmans in Fairmount...

Part of the problem physically is you have to go all the way down to Nedrow if not further south to get rid of the steep rise out of the valley up to I-81.

For the sake of full disclosure, I am the person named in the article and kmbell's friend :-)

[bellafinzi]

Originally Posted by Sgoldie

Bella,

What do you think about all of the close suburbs being incorporated into the city as they've done in so many other places? From a demographic standpoint purely looking at the statistical size of the city that would make a big change when businesses asses whether to move here. It also has the potential to save money for taxpayers.

Last time I traveled I was in what appeared to be a small rural town (in Fl). However it's boundaries extended from a pretty well stocked strip malls thru a practically empty of anything spance to an entirely different older downtown. All considered the same city. The immediately surrounding area to the strip malls wouldn't haven't warranted the kind or amount of stores there had it not been for the combined demographic of the city's expanded population.

I'd be in favor of incorporating the close suburbs into the city if 1) the annexed suburbs could keep their own school districts 2) the leadership in the city changed dramatically from a clueless, backward, anti-growth, anti-change mindset to a more progressive, pro-growth, pro-business, sophisticated, cultured mindset.

If the current city leadership ever got hold of some of the suburbs, I'd truly fear for the future of those suburbs. Why? The city leadership is afraid of change, new development, suburban growth and new ways of looking at the world. It wants to return to the glory days of the 1950s when the Syracuse MSA was booming in population. Those days are over and most people in the city fail to see that Syracuse....the city itself.... needs to reinvent itself, not revert back to the past...which is impossible. Most of the upper-middle class have moved away from the city to either another region of the country in search of jobs or the suburbs in search of better quality of life and schools...and it shows with the type of leadership found in the city.

[acknight]

Originally Posted by bellafinzi

I'd be in favor of incorporating the close suburbs into the city if 1) the annexed suburbs could keep their own school districts 2) the leadership in the city changed dramatically from a clueless, backward, anti-growth, anti-change mindset to a more progressive, pro-growth, pro-business, sophisticated, cultured mindset.

If the current city leadership ever got hold of some of the suburbs, I'd truly fear for the future of those suburbs. Why? The city leadership is afraid of change, new development, suburban growth and new ways of looking at the world. It wants to return to the glory days of the 1950s when the Syracuse MSA was booming in population. Those days are over and most people in the city fail to see that Syracuse....the city itself.... needs to reinvent itself, not revert back to the past...which is impossible. Most of the upper-middle class have moved away from the city to either another region of the country in search of jobs or the suburbs in search of better quality of life and schools...and it shows with the type of leadership found in the city.

Interesting approach. The fact that we have 19 school districts within this county alone, with all of the overhead that goes with that, is part of the reason why the tax burden is as high as it is here. There is no rational reason in the universe that we should take schools consolidation off the table.

#2 would be embodied in the effort to consolidate and annex, partially. But it's hardly as if most of the suburbs in this area don't have governance by people of similar vision levels.

You can revert back to some of the things that made this a booming place to be in while embracing change. Part of what has stagnated this city's progress is the maintenance of the status quo, but that has been changing recently.

[ckhthankgod]

Originally Posted by acknight

Interesting approach. The fact that we have 19 school districts within this county alone, with all of the overhead that goes with that, is part of the reason why the tax burden is as high as it is here. There is no rational reason in the universe that we should take schools consolidation off the table.

#2 would be embodied in the effort to consolidate and annex, partially. But it's hardly as if most of the suburbs in this area don't have governance by people of similar vision levels.

You can revert back to some of the things that made this a booming place to be in while embracing change. Part of what has stagnated this city's progress is the maintenance of the status quo, but that has been changing recently.

So true. I think because we have so many villages, towns, fire districts, police departments, etc., that is a part of why we are taxed so much here.

Also, I agree that the staus quo has or had a lot to do with why the city and area has been losing people or the area being at a standstill. Finally, we are starting to see a change in people running and getting seats in terms of government and leadership. Hopefully, this will continue and for the better.

I also think that Syracuse isn't so far gone that it can't happen within a reasonable time period. We still have many nice neighborhoods in our city, clean air, good schools(even some in the Syracuse City SD), affordable housing stock, relatively low crime, 4 seasons, easy commutes and so on in this area. So, it's not as bad as people might think. Could it be better? For sure, but let's put things into proper perspective too.