What 'do' you like about the city of Syracuse? (Buffalo: low income, apartments)

[dedsde]

In regard to acknight:
I included the first link as an easier way to examine the entire country with out having to pick and choose two cities at a time (which can be time-consuming). I used Buffalo-essentially the same- for the comparison. But I will concede it is not exact so I will allow it out of the data. The second link still validates my premise. I could also bring up a list of my consumption but everyone is not the same. This data takes a general picture.

I have seen the the $90K houses. While not terrible, they don't have the architecture that would be necessary to live in that type of neighborhood. A lot of those houses are very generic and the entire street is essentially lined with copycats the same way new developments are built.

The claim that they "don't build houses like they used" is false as proven by your text. The components of a house typically have 10-20 year useful lives. So if the 15 year old house needs extensive upgrades/replacements it is because nothing has been done to the house since it was built. In comparison to the 60 year old house: if it is in proper condition it most likely means that it has been routinely upgraded at 15 year increments or a huge renovation was done recently.

All consumption is a choice. I don't use tobacco, but I also don't use milk (lactose intolerant). It is all choice. If you are setting claim to an argument that a locale is low-cost it must be low-cost for all imaginable combinations that one may make in their consumption life. And cinema prices are only about a buck more in Manhattan than in Syracuse-should it be that close?.

Also, city-data is a national website. So comparisons should be made for the entire country. It may be factual that Syracuse is low-cost in comparison to suburbs around major metro areas in the northeast but the claim does not remain when opening the comparison to the entire country.

BTW, Syracuse is not a major metro area. So you should be comparing it to smaller areas like Birmingham, AL or Columbus, GA. Not to NYC, LA, Boston, etc.

In regard to proulxfamily:
Maybe you were not living in "abject poverty" but you were depriving yourself and your children of splurges. Did you ever take your children to the movies or stop for ice cream on the way home from school? Or take them to the zoo or a museum? Summer vacation? It is ok for you as an adult to deprive yourself because you understand the future would be better but did your children?

Also, I don't think that is necessarily a feat that only could have been accomplished in Manlius. $500-700 are normal apartment rents for many parts of the country. And often I will be turning channels on the tele and Oprah will have some mom who clips coupons and only spends $10 a week to buy $150 of groceries.

Many large cities have nice towns or villages surrounding them that you could do this in. For example look at Matthews, NC. It has rents for the same price but it is also a much wealthier area than Syracuse, so the wealth flows around (i.e. into the parks, road landscapes-which central NY does not understand how to do, libraries, schools, etc.)

In your closing, you pretty much extend upon what I replied to acknight. When claiming the area is low-cost you must make clear the stipulation that it is only low cost IF you want to live frugally with a comfort of living below the national average. If you want to live with a comfort comparable to the rest of the country it will be more expensive then some other areas. Yes it is a choice. But you seem to be un-accepting of how I want to choose to live. You claim that because I want a nice architecturally beautiful house in a neighborhood properly landscaped that I am somehow wanting something that is only possible if I am living above my means or the means of the average person. This is not true in many parts of the country. In many parts of the country, particularly the south, people value landscaping. It provides an aesthetic value that brings comfort to one's life. Syracuse used to be like this (from picture I've seen from decades ago). But now it no longer exists. In other parts of the country roads like Erie Blvd East would have flower gardens with trees in the center of the road instead of an ugly concrete barrier. Aspects like that bring down the standard of living.

[proulxfamily]

Yes, sir- we did occasionally splurge. We have purchased annual family memberships to the MoST (Museum of Science and Technology), the Rosamond Gifford Zoo and the New York State Park system for the past 5 years. We have regularly visited the Sno Top ice cream stand in Manlius, where we live. All of these memberships together totalled no more than $200/year and were paid for with money saved earned from odd jobs (perhaps watching a friend's children on a snow day or helping someone do their taxes.) We also belonged (still do) to the YMCA in Fayetteville and I continued to ski/snowboard at Toggenburg in winter and would take our oldest daughter (who has always showed interest) with me. We belonged to area playgroups and took advantage of free activities at the libraries, in parks, and both attended and hosted playdates with local mothers/families. We would trade childcare with another family's and have date nights... our favorite was/is a movie at the $1 theater in Mattydale. Popcorn at 50cents. Going to watch free classical concerts at the park with a cheap bottle of wine, cheese, hummus and crackers. We visited family in NYC, NH, Maine, and friends in NC, Florida and the DC area for the cost of gas and groceries while there...

It's unfortunate for you that your idea of poverty>income level doesn't match up with reality. I would be sorry to disappoint if it wasn't for the fact that I'm proud, especially in this debate now, that we were able to focus on *our family* and its needs rather than the perceived needs/desires of a "normal" family.

you were depriving yourself and your children of splurges

This phrase really is bothering me, though I can't delicately explain why... when did it become a sort of poverty to not splurge?

[acknight]

Originally Posted by dedsde

In regard to acknight:
I used Buffalo-essentially the same- for the comparison.

That you can and do say the above lends precisely zero credibility to anything you have to offer.

Originally Posted by dedsde

I have seen the the $90K houses. While not terrible, they don't have the architecture that would be necessary to live in that type of neighborhood. A lot of those houses are very generic and the entire street is essentially lined with copycats the same way new developments are built.

So in other words, for you to consider housing to be low-cost, you'd have to get grand old architecture in tip-top shape for pennies on the dollar. Sorry to burst your bubble, but that isn't happening pretty much anywhere. If you want a bargain on a unique building in a perfect neighborhood, it isn't going to magically be perfectly updated and well-kept.

Originally Posted by dedsde

The claim that they "don't build houses like they used" is false as proven by your text. The components of a house typically have 10-20 year useful lives. So if the 15 year old house needs extensive upgrades/replacements it is because nothing has been done to the house since it was built. In comparison to the 60 year old house: if it is in proper condition it most likely means that it has been routinely upgraded at 15 year increments or a huge renovation was done recently.

I was talking about construction methods more than anything else. New construction more often than not is corner-cutting crap, craftsmanship-wise. My turn of phrase is quite well rooted in fact in that commonly accepted sense.

Originally Posted by dedsde

All consumption is a choice. I don't use tobacco, but I also don't use milk (lactose intolerant). It is all choice. If you are setting claim to an argument that a locale is low-cost it must be low-cost for all imaginable combinations that one may make in their consumption life. And cinema prices are only about a buck more in Manhattan than in Syracuse-should it be that close?.

You want to include cost of tobacco and cinemas in your 'cost-of-living' but not the price of basic foodstuffs consumed by the vast majority of households? Low cost of living for every permutation is not only not possible but impractical. Every area has its pluses and minuses, its things that are inexpensive versus things that are expensive.

Syracuse has a generally accepted low cost of living at minimum relative to most of the northeastern United States. Your mileage may vary based on your consumption patterns.

You will find that the cinema prices are in line with the entirety of the northeast, regardless of size of municipality. Should they be? Absolutely not. Blame Regal Entertainment for that - and it's not a competition thing, as Rochester and Buffalo have competition for cinemas yet similar pricing if not higher. (And a cinema ticket at night in Manhattan's typically $13-14 - how's that a buck more than $9.50 or $10?)

Originally Posted by dedsde

Also, city-data is a national website. So comparisons should be made for the entire country. It may be factual that Syracuse is low-cost in comparison to suburbs around major metro areas in the northeast but the claim does not remain when opening the comparison to the entire country.

BTW, Syracuse is not a major metro area. So you should be comparing it to smaller areas like Birmingham, AL or Columbus, GA. Not to NYC, LA, Boston, etc.

And yet you can claim with a straight face that you put Buffalo, NY (a major city ~3x the size of Syracuse, metro population) as essentially the same of Syracuse? While we shouldn't be comparing it to major metro areas?

[Syracuser]

ProulxFamily - I give you a lot of credit, living on only 15k gross a year w/ 4 children! I am incredibly impressed!

How did you spend so little on groceries? - For my wife and I, we spend $200 a month.

[proulxfamily]

Originally Posted by Syracuser

ProulxFamily - I give you a lot of credit, living on only 15k gross a year w/ 4 children! I am incredibly impressed!

How did you spend so little on groceries? - For my wife and I, we spend $200 a month.

Not four children... just a family of 4. lol - two adults, two children. It would have been possible, certainly, but considerably more boring a menu. :P

Aldi's, Wegman's and menu planning. I primarily cook from scratch. I have a few menus that I've written out for people but the most recent one - the only one I can find at the moment - is more expensive. This was made for a personal friend of mine, in August. The menu in italics below is what I would consider an extremely varied menu... because in our own family, I tend to choose and on sale meat for the week and use it for different things all week. This is for *now.* Once Wegman's starts their turkey sales around Thanksgiving, I'll buy probably 2-3 turkeys/week, roast them, cube the meat and freeze them in 2-4 cup freezer bags. That usually lasts us until spring.

Here's my post to someone else about the August menu for my firend-

They're a family of 5 but 4 adults and a one year old- pregnant friend and her husband, his parents, and the 1 year old girl. This is a menu made from the things I know she makes and made to get around things I know her husband and FIL will not eat. It was a little maddening to make this list for her because she was saying how broke they were but would.not.budge on the fact that they "needed" certain things, like meat every night and a "scrumptious breakfast."GAH! lol - I'd have been able to get it down to probably $50-$60 otherwise. As it is, this came to about $85 for the week.

Breakfast
3x - 8 eggs, scrambled with 1/2lb. spinach and 1/2 cup shredded cheese.
2x - 12 slices bread, 6 bananas - french toast with sliced bananas/syrup on top.
1x - homefries with thinly sliced kielbasa, 4 eggs, peppers and onions.
1x - 8 eggs, chopped deli ham, cheese, toast

Lunch
3x - Ham, lettuce, 12 slices bread, tomato. Banana/apple/cheap fruit.
2x - tunafish sandwiches, lettuce, tomato. Banana/apple/cheap fruit.
2x - leftovers

Dinner
2x - turkey burgers, onion, lettuce, tomato, bun, dressing and potato fries.
1x - spaghetti with meatballs, stir in 1/2lb. of spinach
2x - Chicken, frozen veggie, potato (her husband doesn't like seasoned/saucy food.)
1x - corn/potato chowder w/kielbasa, green pepper, onion, corn, milk
1x - enchilada casserole (corn tortillas, ground turkey, taco seasoning, cheese, corn, salsa, onions)

Treats are oatmeal and/or chocolate chip cookies. I budgeted in extra butter, sugars, flour, eggs... and assuming you have things like baking soda, salt, baking powder, vanilla.

*There is leftover food... like a pound of spaghetti and probably a good amount of leftover meat. If you need to supplement a meal, use the leftovers to come up with a dish. Maybe toss together spaghetti, spinach, cheese, and some butter.

4 dozen eggs - $3
4lbs. frozen spinach - $3.20
2lbs. shredded cheddar - $3.98
4 loaves bread (wheat) - $4.80
6 bunches bananas - ~$6 (or whatever cheap fruit)
10lbs. potatoes - $3.99
onions - $2
syrup - $1.20
1lb. deli ham - $2.49
mayo - $1.99
8 cans tuna - $5
4 loops kielbasa - $7.80
8lbs. ground turkey - $9.60
10lbs. chicken leg quarters - $4.90
2packages buns - $1.58
Italian dressing - 99cents
2 jars marinara - $2.18
taco seasoning - 33cents
chicken boullion - $1.30
2lbs. spaghetti - $1.19
2 gallons milk - $2.58
2lbs corn and 1lb peas (frozen) - $2.37
salsa - $1.49
corn tortillas - $1.19
2lbs butter - $3.20
brown and white sugar - $2.29
flour - $1.59
oatmeal - $1.19
chocolate chips - $1.49
coffee - $2.49

Farmers market for 3 peppers and 3 big bunches of lettuce - comes to no more than $5 at our farmer's market.

We do our grocery shopping between Aldi's and Wegman's - some things are cheaper in different places. If you're more flexible, there are a lot of options for decreasing the budget but the men in her family MUST have meat at every meal. And if you're a family of two, it's possible to get it down *much* lower.

[proulxfamily]

Another help, which I used to use but fell out of... really should get back into it... is www.grocerygame.com The fee is worthwhile, if you don't want to match up everything and keep store sale schedules yourself. And after a bit, you'll recognize them yourself and won't have to belong to the site. It matches store sales with circular coupons with little-known store incentives and when doubles (rare in CNY) are run.

Example- Mrs. T's pierogies on sale for 2 for $3 and you find a coupon that marks $1 off 2. Now you get them for $1 each. You've so far collected 4 coupons- buy 8. For $8. Peter Pan pb for 2 for $3. Same kind of coupon. Buy 8 for $8. Hillshire Farms kielbasa is BOGO at $2.99/package. You have $1 off One coupons. But you also have 8 doubling coupons. Buy 8 packages of kielbasa. For $7.92. And a 3lb. bag of onions to get up to/just over $25. Getting to $25 of pre-selected products qualifies you for a $7 credit toward a future grocery purchase. That can be in a moment, toward non-sale groceries, or for the following week. Still, it's essentially buying-

8 packages of pierogies, 8 packages of kielbasa, and 8 jars of peanut butter - all of this name brand - for about $18. Original price: ~$60.

Grocery Game takes all the thinking out of it. lol

[Syracuser]

Thanks for the advice! Yes, I meant a family of 4, sorry.

A great site for random stuff, including grocery deals is - Slickdeals.net - The best coupons, lowest prices, and hottest deals. - I am sure you prob heard of it.

[RollsRoyce]

Originally Posted by acknight

That you can and do say the above lends precisely zero credibility to anything you have to offer.



So in other words, for you to consider housing to be low-cost, you'd have to get grand old architecture in tip-top shape for pennies on the dollar. Sorry to burst your bubble, but that isn't happening pretty much anywhere. If you want a bargain on a unique building in a perfect neighborhood, it isn't going to magically be perfectly updated and well-kept.



I was talking about construction methods more than anything else. New construction more often than not is corner-cutting crap, craftsmanship-wise. My turn of phrase is quite well rooted in fact in that commonly accepted sense.



You want to include cost of tobacco and cinemas in your 'cost-of-living' but not the price of basic foodstuffs consumed by the vast majority of households? Low cost of living for every permutation is not only not possible but impractical. Every area has its pluses and minuses, its things that are inexpensive versus things that are expensive.

Syracuse has a generally accepted low cost of living at minimum relative to most of the northeastern United States. Your mileage may vary based on your consumption patterns.

You will find that the cinema prices are in line with the entirety of the northeast, regardless of size of municipality. Should they be? Absolutely not. Blame Regal Entertainment for that - and it's not a competition thing, as Rochester and Buffalo have competition for cinemas yet similar pricing if not higher. (And a cinema ticket at night in Manhattan's typically $13-14 - how's that a buck more than $9.50 or $10?)



And yet you can claim with a straight face that you put Buffalo, NY (a major city ~3x the size of Syracuse, metro population) as essentially the same of Syracuse? While we shouldn't be comparing it to major metro areas?

I agree with your points with the exception of Buffalo. The Queen City is far from a "major city" and is 2x the size of Syracuse not 3x. According to census estimates Buffalo has a population of about 270,000 vs 138,000 for Syracuse. Calling Buffalo a major metropolitan area is not accurate. The Buffalo-Niagara Falls MSA is barely a top 50 metro area (currently ranked 47) and falling fast.

[acknight]

Originally Posted by RollsRoyce

I agree with your points with the exception of Buffalo. The Queen City is far from a "major city" and is 2x the size of Syracuse not 3x. According to census estimates Buffalo has a population of about 270,000 vs 138,000 for Syracuse. Calling Buffalo a major metropolitan area is not accurate. The Buffalo-Niagara Falls MSA is barely a top 50 metro area (currently ranked 47) and falling fast.

While it is a declining metro (for many reasons), Buffalo is still generally considered to be a major metropolitan area, largely due to its more historical status as such. (It remains, if not by a large amount, the second largest city in the state)

I had in my head the MSA as substantially closer to 3x than the current estimates - had it closer to 1.5-1.7M, instead of 1.2-1.3M.

Classing Syracuse and Buffalo's MSAs in the same league, however, is still suspect.

[dedsde]

With no intent, am I trying to make personal attacks or to denigrate a certain style of living, but

proulxfamily, are you telling me that when you visited those locations that you just sat around your family and friends' houses? Or did those locations have comparable attributes that you describe of Manlius/Syracuse that are free/low cost?

It is not really clear if you are proud, but you are definitely defensive of your choices. Again, I'm not criticizing your choices. I am a libertarian and really have no interest in dictating how you live your life. I'm only trying to make it clear to people from other areas of the country that Syracuse is not a low-cost, high standard-of-living area. It is not a necessarily bad place to live but if you are expecting to live at a comparable level of other areas, you may pay more.

Also, it is not my idea of poverty. It is the government's. 2009 Federal Poverty Guidelines
A family of four, with income under $22,050 is a poverty family.

This phrase really is bothering me, though I can't delicately explain why... when did it become a sort of poverty to not splurge?

It makes you angry, because you think I am attacking you and especially your children. Let me describe an example of proven psychological effects of social deprivation. If you were working in a coal mine everyday, 10 hour shifts. After work, all your co-workers were heading to the bar for a beer. But you can't because you can't spare the $2 (or multiple of). If you are never able to join your co-workers at the bar and must just go home, you will feel deprived. But you can handle it better because you understand you are doing it so your children can eat. But say, your child sees his friend going to see all the blockbusters coming out at the cinema ($10 tickets). Your child can't. He is going to feel deprived and inferior. Because the definition (poverty: Definition, Synonyms from Answers.com) of poverty is: "Deficiency in amount; scantiness: "the poverty of feeling that reduced her soul" (Scott Turow)." Don't take the above as a personal attack.

acknight, explain to me how exactly Buffalo is significantly different than Syracuse? The Buffalo of today (which is basically a suburb of Toronto) not the Buffalo of 100 years ago.

I never said I was looking for grand old architecture. I am just not interested in boring shot-gun houses. If I'm buying into an older neighborhood it must possess the qualities that make an older neighborhood desirable over a newer neighborhood. And that trait is usually the diversity of the housing stock. The streets where the 80-90K houses are have houses that look like they are all built from the same blueprint.

Also, newer housing that is built with cost-cutting cheapness, is built for a working middle class. Houses built for a higher clientelle are usually built with higher standards. The same thing happened in the past. Except those cheaper houses don't exist anymore (they've been torn down).

Your right. It is impossible to make permutations for every living style. That is why specific algorithms are created to take this into account. I'm not sure what you are trying to say. It seems like you think only your life-style is important. So every measure of standard should be put against what you do. Also, I think you are getting gypped if you are paying $14 for movies in Manhattan b/c the price is only $12.50.

Again you don't compare against anything outside the Northeast. Last time I checked, businesses were not picking up roots in Syracuse and moving to New Hampshire. They are moving to the Southeast, Southwest, etc. We are a unified country, which means no barriers of movement between regions. So keep the barriers out of your mind.

Also, nobody addressed my claim that Syracuse was not unique in being a city where you can live low-cost. So I guess that is true.