Syracuse Suburban Sprawl, good or bad? (Italy, Columbus: sales, lofts, house)

[bellafinzi]

Even if you are correct, then how would you stop families from moving to the suburbs where there are better schools, larger homes, less depressing environment?

The logic of thinking about sprawl as a problem is flawed. Sprawl happens for a reason. No one is making people move to the suburbs. They move there because they chose to do so.

This whole debate is self-defeating in my opinion. It takes away from the true problem like the local economy. If the area was booming, the city would be revitalized....end of story. Stopping sprawl will not bring new jobs.

How do you even know that people would move to the Syracuse area if they had to live within the city limits? I know I wouldn't. And if Syracuse can't attract professionals from the outside, businesses will not locate here and jobs will not increase.

Even if you win the debate, it will still not change the negatives of the city and the positives of the suburbs.

I say, make the city a great place to live and work and people will chose to live there and do business there. Forcing the sprawl issue will just divide this community even more.

[NorthStarDelight]

Allow me to weigh in, if you will.

I think the issue should be focused on not whether the suburbs and sprawl are "bad', but what can be done to make the city a better place to live. You say that the city of Syracuse is "depressing" and that new residents are advised not to live there. To me, that sounds like a defeatist attitude. If it wasn't for the city, you'd not have those nice 'burbs that you're so proud of. If Syracuse dies, the rest of the area will do so as well. So it's very much in your interest, and the interest of every other family that seeks to live in the Syracuse area, to have a healthy, attractive city of Syracuse.

How to go about this? Easier said than done, but it CAN be done, if the city leaders have the proper vision and the will to follow through, along with support from citizens and business owners. For starters, go with what works. The tried-and-true basics of community policing to force the crime rate down. Apply the "broken windows" theory and implement strict anti-graffiti measures, as well as forcing landowners to clean up their properties. Get rid of the weeds, clean up the trash, and if they don't comply, have the city do it and bill the property owner.

What the city is doing right now with the Connective Corridor and possibly tearing down I-81 through downtown (a VERY good idea, kudos to them for giving this serious consideration ) is a great start, IMO. The new children's hospital that's just opened is an architectural marvel that will hopefully inspire other beautiful buildings to be built in the downtown area. Plant the seeds of inspiration, and people will come.

Syracuse is in the midst of a gorgeous area with a gorgeous climate, which it needs play up to no end. For example, when I was a kid growing up in the South, I always shed a little tear every Christmastime because I didn't get to experience the season like in the stories - the snow, real snow, real cold. The kind of snow to go on one-horse sleigh rides in. Waking up on Christmas morning and having a foot of fresh snow on the ground outside and drinking hot cocoa by a crackling fire. Being able to strap on a pair of ice skates and go skating at the local pond....you have no idea how badly I've wanted that, and I still do, to this day. So why not play up on this? Have an awesome Christmas Festival every December, give the children to experience the season just like in the stories. Do an Ice Festival in January, and a Snow Festival in Feburary, to make full use of that wondrous snow-filled season. Once people get used to going to Syracuse, and see that it's not "dead", nor "depressing" like they've might have heard, they'll see it as a city with potential. And then the city leaders can give this more momentum with tax breaks for in-city development, homeowner restoration grants and loans, do a trolley system in town, so people don't have to walk in the rain and snow, etc. Lots of things that have worked in other cities have the potential to work in a place like Syracuse, as long as people (both government and residents) have the desire to make it happen.

As for the 'burbs, they'll do just fine on their own - the people that want to move there, will, and commute to their *new* job in the city. When people look at the city as a positive force as opposed to a negative one, then there's no limit to the potential this city could achieve. You just gotta believe.

[ckhthankgod]

Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight

Allow me to weigh in, if you will.

I think the issue should be focused on not whether the suburbs and sprawl are "bad', but what can be done to make the city a better place to live. You say that the city of Syracuse is "depressing" and that new residents are advised not to live there. To me, that sounds like a defeatist attitude. If it wasn't for the city, you'd not have those nice 'burbs that you're so proud of. If Syracuse dies, the rest of the area will do so as well. So it's very much in your interest, and the interest of every other family that seeks to live in the Syracuse area, to have a healthy, attractive city of Syracuse.

How to go about this? Easier said than done, but it CAN be done, if the city leaders have the proper vision and the will to follow through, along with support from citizens and business owners. For starters, go with what works. The tried-and-true basics of community policing to force the crime rate down. Apply the "broken windows" theory and implement strict anti-graffiti measures, as well as forcing landowners to clean up their properties. Get rid of the weeds, clean up the trash, and if they don't comply, have the city do it and bill the property owner.

What the city is doing right now with the Connective Corridor and possibly tearing down I-81 through downtown (a VERY good idea, kudos to them for giving this serious consideration ) is a great start, IMO. The new children's hospital that's just opened is an architectural marvel that will hopefully inspire other beautiful buildings to be built in the downtown area. Plant the seeds of inspiration, and people will come.

Syracuse is in the midst of a gorgeous area with a gorgeous climate, which it needs play up to no end. For example, when I was a kid growing up in the South, I always shed a little tear every Christmastime because I didn't get to experience the season like in the stories - the snow, real snow, real cold. The kind of snow to go on one-horse sleigh rides in. Waking up on Christmas morning and having a foot of fresh snow on the ground outside and drinking hot cocoa by a crackling fire. Being able to strap on a pair of ice skates and go skating at the local pond....you have no idea how badly I've wanted that, and I still do, to this day. So why not play up on this? Have an awesome Christmas Festival every December, give the children to experience the season just like in the stories. Do an Ice Festival in January, and a Snow Festival in Feburary, to make full use of that wondrous snow-filled season. Once people get used to going to Syracuse, and see that it's not "dead", nor "depressing" like they've might have heard, they'll see it as a city with potential. And then the city leaders can give this more momentum with tax breaks for in-city development, homeowner restoration grants and loans, do a trolley system in town, so people don't have to walk in the rain and snow, etc. Lots of things that have worked in other cities have the potential to work in a place like Syracuse, as long as people (both government and residents) have the desire to make it happen.

As for the 'burbs, they'll do just fine on their own - the people that want to move there, will, and commute to their *new* job in the city. When people look at the city as a positive force as opposed to a negative one, then there's no limit to the potential this city could achieve. You just gotta believe.

Exactly! What is even more encouraging about the city of Syracuse is that there are still plenty of nice urban neighborhoods and our crime rate, as bad as people think it is, is actually relatively low to average, for a city of it's size.

We also have plenty of festivals during the spring, summer and fall, but only one for the winter. I think that could be increased as well. We could center it around the ice skating rink in Clinton Square in Downtown too(for those that don't know, think smaller version of Rockefeller Center).

We also have plenty of higher educational institutions in the area and I would like to see other higher ed. institutions besides Syracuse University have more of an influence and footprint in the city. This could be done through satellite campuses, adult education and forming a regional think tank in the city of Syracuse for the city and region as a whole. We have other schools in the metro like Colgate, Morrisville St., Oswego St., Cazenovia College, LeMoyne College and Onondaga Community College, with several others in Central NY, that could have such influence in the city and region.

As far as schools, I think an Arts HS would be a great draw and improve scores and graduation percentages. For instance, the best HS in the city of Rochester SD is School of the Arts, which graduated 87% of it's students according to the last NYSED Report Card. Buffalo City's DiVinci High graduated 90% of it's students in the same period and Buffalo arts graduated 77% during that time. I believe a Tech High school with a test to get in would be a good idea too. Again, in Buffalo, Hutchinson Central Technical High graduated 90% of it's students within the recent 4 four year graduation class and that school has a entrance test to attend that school. Another thing that is key to these schools is that minority student have high graduation rates at these schools too. With about 70% of the students in the Syracuse City SD being "minority", I think we have to find ways to get the best out of all students in a way that will pique interest in school and build off of their talents and skills. Having more magnet elementary schools would be great as well. Urban schools in NY State like Buffalo's Olmsted Elementary and Utica's Watson Wiliams are two examples of magnet elementary schools that have high test scores and achievement, among others.

I think it is a city in transition and for the better with projects going up and ones that show great potential for job and even population growth.

Our location is great as well and I hope the city uses that to hlp attract business(US and Canadian) to the area too.

[proulxfamily]

Some people prefer all clean lines, perfectly manicured yards and new construction homes. Some people prefer craftsman or Victorian homes and all the details that come with them, wildflowers in the front yard and little else in the way of landscaping. Maybe a little chipped paint on the picket fence to add to the charm...

It's hard to explain Syracuse and the suburbs between those who disagree so inherently. LOL - you can pretty much direct people to the perfect place for them based on their architecture preference and budget.

[Cleveland Park]

To attract that creative class that Richard Florida and others speak about, one needs a vibrant city. These folks would never consider living in a suburb. Neither would I. A significant number of the people -- academics, artists, young professionals -- will only live in a walkable urban environment.

Nobody considers New York, Boston, or even Portland, Oregon a destination because of generic mass-produced vinyl homes, dead-end streets without sidewalks, and chain retail surrounded by parking lots. Those characteristics pretty much universally scorned. It seems very odd that anyone would espouse alleged "positives" of the suburbs. To be sure, I'm sure some people are very fond of their way of living. For the bulk of society -- especially the movers and shakers -- that 20th-century way of life is the antithesis of what is desirable.

[beckyhuggs]

The last few posts have been really great to read and lot of what I believe.

-In particular what NorthStarDelight says about winter. Its high time Syracuse started really utilizing what it gets a lot of - SNOW!

Here's some of my winter ideas-
-I always thought Syracuse should sponser an official snow ball fight downtown every winter so that we have the largest snow ball fight in the world. I think if done appropriatly it can be very safe and tons of fun.
-Another idea is to close off certain downtown streets or half of the street, keep snow well piled up on that side/street, and provide horse drawn sleigh rides (with the bells and all) all winter long.
-Once when I went to a historical place it was very cold so they had bonfires on all the street corners, it wasn't campfire style but done very nicely and safe. It really added to the beauty of the place.

I would love to see city officals starting to think more creatively about how to make winter a true asset to downtown.

[jrice]

especially the movers and shakers -- that 20th-century way of life is the antithesis of what is desirable.

Disagree with that, the Hamptons is a testament to that. The movers and shakers of the 20th century, you know the bankers, oil men, and tech gurus all lived in palatial estates

A significant number of the people -- academics, artists, young professionals -- will only live in a walkable urban environment.

The first 2 yes, I whole heartedly agree, the young urban professionals tend to live in very expensive high rises while on their way to obtaining their own palatial estates

[bellafinzi]

Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight

I think the issue should be focused on not whether the suburbs and sprawl are "bad', but what can be done to make the city a better place to live.

Yes, this what I am saying. Focus on the making the city better and stop with the sprawl debate!

Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight

You say that the city of Syracuse is "depressing" and that new residents are advised not to live there.

I could not sleep at night if I told someone else the City of Syracuse is a great place to live. That is my opinion. It is not defeatist. A defeatist attitude is someone who blames the suburbs for the city's problems. Which is not the case. That's like saying that unless we stop the suburbs from growing the city will never be revitalized.

Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight

The tried-and-true basics of community policing to force the crime rate down. Apply the "broken windows" theory and implement strict anti-graffiti measures, as well as forcing landowners to clean up their properties. Get rid of the weeds, clean up the trash, and if they don't comply, have the city do it and bill the property owner.

Right on! You are on the money!

I've been saying the same thing for years and every time I visit the city it looks the same. I'm still waiting for someone to invest in curb appeal all across the city. Just visit Rochester and get ideas for starters.

Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight

As for the 'burbs, they'll do just fine on their own - the people that want to move there, will, and commute to their *new* job in the city.

I agree. Also, we need to stop thinking that stopping suburban development will automatically transform the city.

[Cleveland Park]

Re: "we need to stop thinking that stopping suburban development will automatically transform the city."

I'm on the record as a happy urbanite; while I do not like the suburbs, I don't wish to impugn anyone who wishes to live out there. I also haven't thought "that stopping suburban development will automatically transform the city." However, put that way, it's an interesting thought.

To all suburbanites out there: Are you good people? Good neighbors? Educated sorts who get along well, like to have cookouts, go have a catch with the neighbors' kids? Leave your porch light on, pick up any litter you might see on the curb?

If so, bringing you into the city would likely transform it -- quite literally overnight. Again, not intending to criticize your current home. But if every neighborhood in the city had that critical mass of good citizens -- eyes on the street, active in the community -- who moved in from the suburbs, yes: the city would indeed be transformed by the cessation of suburban development.

(Of course, those of us who are intimately familiar with the city know that there are many neighborhoods that have all those positive characteristics, and more. Anyone who denigrates the city as "depressing" or even having bad schools clearly has absolutely no idea of what life is really like in the city. But where the citizens behave like citizens, there's no better place to be. Urban, exurban, or anyplace in between, the quality of the people really makes the place.)


Also, regarding that Hamptons correction, I'd respectfully disagree. The bulk of the wealth out there is seasonal. Most of the full-time population out there on the island is more upper-middle class; the uber-wealthy are summer folk (and would likely much rather be high above Park Avenue than out on the island during the cold winter months). Many wealthy cosmopolitans in this country have maintained permanent residences in urban areas, rural seasonal retreats notwithstanding.

[SteveMax58]

I can't speak to the specific problems Syracuse has had over the years/decades with people moving to the suburbs...but I agree with bella that you can't just stop people from moving to areas they want to live in...you'll just manage to chase them away altogether.

Trying to address sprawl to fix the city issues directly is like treating sneezing for somebody with the flu...you can't fix symptoms without ultimately fixing the source of the problem. If the problem is that people do not want to live in the city, then ask "why do people not like living in the city?"

I'm not sure I understand the reason to smite people who choose to live in suburbs, or make disparaging remarks about where people choose to live, or their taste in housing, etc. I really don't have any issues with people who live in big houses, small houses, old houses, new houses, with big yards, small yards, no yards, or an entire county of yard. So why does this bother others?

Everybody has their own lifestyle, image of community, personal reasons, and dreams of what they want in a community...so why knock what you claim you don't want?