Syracuse Suburban Sprawl, good or bad? (New City, Manlius: apartment complex, rental homes, dorms)

[Cleveland Park]

To all who keep using these two straw men of "poor schools" and "houses that don't appreciate as fast as those in the suburbs": care to back up any of those claims?

This is the trouble with the "we don't like the city" argument -- the arguments for why the city is no good are usually specious and rely on contrived assumptions.

I'll admit that a lot of people do want a home surrounded by a large yard; to be sure, this is something that one cannot find in the city. If you want an acre of lawn, Syracuse probably isn't where you want to be. I understand that. I'd prefer a mature canopy of street trees to a new development with wide open spaces, but if you don't, more power to you.

But I can't for the life of me understand where the lack of appreciation argument comes from -- huge tracts of the city, including virtually everything east of Comstock Avenue and south of East Genesee Street, have homes assessed higher than those in all but a handful (Fayetteville, Manlius, Dewitt, Camillus) of suburbs. Moreover, the mass-produced homes in the new northern suburban developments aren't going to see substantial appreciation in the next couple decades -- vinyl siding, lack of sidewalks, curbs, street trees, and walkable urban amenities are simply things people want, and are huge contributors to the value of a home. The 19th-Century urban homes with architectural detail and solid construction are the real investments.

The schools thing is equally puzzling. At at least one elite private university in the northeast, we had Nottingham kids, Fayetteville-Manlius kids, West Genesee kids, and Jamesville-Dewitt kids. As far as area public school representation goes, that was it. Small sample, yes. But there are thousands of alumni from Ed Smith, H.W. Smith, and Nottingham who would call someone crazy for claiming that their education was somehow substandard. I'd put that group up any day of the week against students from any local school district, and I feel the same way about the bulk of the teachers. These schools are full of kids from strong backgrounds -- often the children of university faculty -- and the success they go on to have illustrates this well. The claim that Syracuse City Schools are to be avoided is, simply, nuts.

[adirondackguy123]

I think when gas prices go back up to $4 a gallon that will put a slow down on sprawl big time and if it hits $6 a gallon hopefully it will stop it in it's tracks.

[jrice]

"houses that don't appreciate as fast as those in the suburbs": care to back up any of those claims?

OK, two case studies:

The house I recently purchased was built in 1997, and was purchased from the builder for $101900, 11 years latter I bought it for 162900--and that was low because the owner was desperate and had a house and job lined up in Maine. Appreciation: 60k 11 years

I inherited a house in lyncourt in 1995 from my grandfather, sold that house for 57000, recently that couple that sold the home (past 2 or 3 years) for 60k. Appreciation 2k in 14 years

No you cant tell me that this is an isolated occurrence when lets face some facts here--demand drive the appreciation rates, and there has been a county wide surge to the burbs.

The only thing that is going to drive people back to the city is jobs. Jobs in the metro area and until that time there is no reason for someone to really live there. Crime is on average higher in the city as opposed to the burbs, appreciation is higher, etc etc

[beckyhuggs]

Originally Posted by jrice

OK, two case studies:

The house I recently purchased was built in 1997, and was purchased from the builder for $101900, 11 years latter I bought it for 162900--and that was low because the owner was desperate and had a house and job lined up in Maine. Appreciation: 60k 11 years

I inherited a house in lyncourt in 1995 from my grandfather, sold that house for 57000, recently that couple that sold the home (past 2 or 3 years) for 60k. Appreciation 2k in 14 years

No you cant tell me that this is an isolated occurrence when lets face some facts here--demand drive the appreciation rates, and there has been a county wide surge to the burbs.

The only thing that is going to drive people back to the city is jobs. Jobs in the metro area and until that time there is no reason for someone to really live there. Crime is on average higher in the city as opposed to the burbs, appreciation is higher, etc etc

That my be true about your house but the point is that the same thing CAN be found in the city. I know someone who sold their house last year in the city at an appreciation value of 65k after 15 years. Plus the house sold within 2 weeks.
Also, where you sold that house was in Lyncourt, not the city!

In addition, you say that the only thing that will drive people back to the city is jobs but thats where the majority of the jobs are already. Most of the people who live in the suburbs commute into the city for work. Jobs in the city is not the issue.

[jrice]

Originally Posted by beckyhuggs

That my be true about your house but the point is that the same thing CAN be found in the city. I know someone who sold their house last year in the city at an appreciation value of 65k after 15 years. Plus the house sold within 2 weeks.
Also, where you sold that house was in Lyncourt, not the city!

In addition, you say that the only thing that will drive people back to the city is jobs but thats where the majority of the jobs are already. Most of the people who live in the suburbs commute into the city for work. Jobs in the city is not the issue.

thats true, but wouldnt it make that house slightly more desirable?

[Cleveland Park]

OK, that's a fair counterexample. Perhaps I ought to restate that thought on appreciation: by and large, the ceiling for suburban houses is lower than it is on the older, urban housing stock (not those post-war urban neighborhoods of the West End, Lyncourt, Meadowbrook, et al.). Certainly demand for suburban housing will drive up prices; however, they realistically couldn't get much beyond double their current value. Older urban housing stock, if the demand is there, could conceivably (and does, in some local neighborhoods) fetch a much higher price.

Also, I'm not sure that Lyncourt is really representative of the city as a whole. Of course, not too many neighborhoods are; it's a rather diverse city.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by beckyhuggs

In addition, you say that the only thing that will drive people back to the city is jobs but thats where the majority of the jobs are already. Most of the people who live in the suburbs commute into the city for work. Jobs in the city is not the issue.

Slightly OT but...

I think this is where you could give more incentives to city residents in regards to free abandoned warehouse/building spaces if their Primary residence is within the city limits(i.e. not a rental property they own). Easy win-win as you can structure such things with a profit sharing or at a minimum, property tax revenue.

[bellafinzi]

Originally Posted by CNYDC

Herein lies the problem. In a region like Syracuse where there is zero population growth, economic development is a zero-sum game. Its not like some bigger cities with insatiable growth where you can support both urban and suburban development. So, unfortunately, in Syracuse it IS a decision between suburbs and city.

That is a defeatist attitude!!!

Here is where we disagree. I believe the Syracuse metro can grow in population with enough job growth.

Which means when the Syracuse area starts growing again, a percentage of the growing population will choose to live in the city. That is how all cities across the US are revitalized. Not by stopping suburban growth.

[bellafinzi]

OK, I changed my mind.

Syracuse should stop sprawl.

1) First we need tell the home developers and builders that if you do not build within the 25 sq mile city limits then you are NOT welcome here. Put any suburban home builders out of business now!

2) Then we'll tell all the families that want to build a new house in the suburbs to either change your mind and build in the city or to move to Rochester!

3) We'll tell any business that wants to build a new building that you must build it within the city limits or else you are not allowed to build here in metro Syracuse. Go take you business to Rochester or any other city which allows evil sprawl to continue.

[ckhthankgod]

Originally Posted by jrice

See I disagree, education is only going to go so far because even if we become a mecca for learning those students are still going to leave the area.

We are alittle more diversified to a degree than those two mentioned cities but not by much. And it was more of an accident than planned. When manufactoring moved out (and is still) we are lucky we have the university to fall back on. But even thats not enough to revitilze our community. We need more, and alot more, especially if everyone wants for the city to become a hub for life again. Everyone wants lofts, and a soho like atmosphere for downtown, problem is that none of the remaining industry left around pays well enough for those types of communities. Even if we build upon what we already have--the mdical industry--bring in those companies that supply to and sell for those industries--offer them things--like those warehouses you mentioned--they are abandoned, give them those to occupy free. That way we have tax revenue rolling in, property tax rolling in, more pople are employed--more income and sales taxes, etc

I'm not saying that education by itself would do the trick, but when you have a higher education institution, it does provide other jobs as too.

As for Flint and Detroit, trust me, we are not close to those two cities. I went to Michigan state for 3 years during the mid 90's and they were having the same or similar issues then.

Also, we do have companies like Syracuse Research Corp., Anaren/MS Kennedy, Sensis and Lockheed Martin, along some smaller businesses that can be expanded and have.