Syracuse Suburban Sprawl, good or bad? (Ithaca, Boston: coupons, mover, big house)

[bellafinzi]

Some people are shallow and are impressed by skylines.

Some people have big egos and need to live in a place that best strokes their ego.

Moreover, if Syracuse does NOT stroke anyone's ego or again, inspire anyone with it's beauty, then it will not attract enough jobs or newcomers to be successful.

Originally Posted by proulxfamily

I just had a crazy thought... how about we test this Shiny Skyscraper Theory and build one in the center of the south side? If success follows shiny buildings, then BAM! Poverty *solved.*

That would definitely work, right? :P

Is this a joke?

Do you really think I'm that clueless?

I must come across as a real bozo then. I know I'm not the most articulate writer in the world, but come on......

[Cleveland Park]

Another counter-example: Rome. Stupid Italian government, protecting that shabby old Colosseum and not replacing it with shiny new buildings.

[ckhthankgod]

Originally Posted by CNYDC

Interesting article in the Washington Post today about Pittsburgh (timed to coincide with the G-20 summit there) and the impressive strides that the city has made since the steel industry evaporated. I think it hits on two key points relevant to this thread: 1) Pittsburgh has effectively shifted and diversified its economy, leveraging its key assets (universities and healthcare -- sound familiar?) ; 2) It has focused on the redevelopment of its downtown as a means of attracting and retaining new residents and businesses. Note that there is no mention of the quality or livability of its suburbs.

washingtonpost.com

All very true and they have also capitalized on the robotics and even financial industries as well. Pittsburgh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[ckhthankgod]

As a person that has been to many places in the South, Midwest and Northeast, I think that people in this area really can be unappreciative about what Syracuse offers. I think part of that is due to some not going to other places, not taking advantage of cultural and other events offered here and the still visible industrial mentality that many of the area's citizens have. Think about it, you can't find too many cities with about 138,000 people with a serious arts scene with an Opera, Syracuse Stage, an Orchestra and many venues for bands of all types. You also have a great sports scene with Division 1 sports, as well as professional minor league sports. We are probably one of a handful of cities with legitimate Black, White, Asian, Hispanic and Native American communities in this country and with diversity within each of those groups. We have great schools for the most part. We are located between two nation's capitals and the biggest city of two countries, let alone the many other great major cities within a 5-6 hour drive. There is much more, but these are some of the things the area needs to capitalize on to attract people here. I'm on the General U.S. forum doing that because we have so much to offer, but the area goes under radar, because many people don't know how to promote the area.

[proulxfamily]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Park

Another counter-example: Rome. Stupid Italian government, protecting that shabby old Colosseum and not replacing it with shiny new buildings.

Precisely. What idiots. Did you know that they built the metro system *around* these RUINS? They're such eyesores, you know? I'll bet the grass that grows on top of those ruins up the Palatine haven't been weed-whacked in ohhhhh... forever. And I don't know why Termini station is next to the Colsseum instead of on-site... it's so inconvenient to cross that busy street and all.

I've been to Rome a few times to see ruins... but if there were shiny skyscrapers, I'd be beside myself to visit again! NOT. Does Rome even have a shiny-new-skyscraper sector? If so, I've never seen them. That fuddy-duddy 'ol Pontiff should take initiative and dig up the backyard (aka Vatican Gardens) and build a shiny, new skyscraper-cathedral. I'll bet everyone who sees it will want to start going to Church - hello, Mass Conversion via Shiny Skyscraper Church. And that's how you get into Heaven... Skyscrapers for Jesus.

(I should blog this. lol)

[jrice]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Park

For those seeking a new city, with very little exception, highly educated people flock to walkable, urban places with culture (and, of course, available employment). There's no disputing that. This is why New York, Boston, Chicago, Washington, San Francisco, and, to a lesser extent, Portland, pull the bulk of recent graduates from the nation's best schools.

Even if there were jobs to be had, very few of this group would want to live in an area that can only be accessed via automobile. Fewer still would want to live in a place that has a.) no museums/theatre/culture, and b.) mainly chain retail.

Moreover, the matter of "stopping sprawl" is, again, not one of "efforts to drastically suppress growth." Extension of (public) infrastructure is the only thing facilitating suburban sprawl. The county has a finite amount of resources. It is nuts to use them in such a way that a.) destroys green space, b.) encourages land use in a manner that will be obsolete decades from now, and c.) diverts capital from the region's greatest asset (the city). We're not talking about suppressing suburban growth -- simply not further subsidizing it at the necessary expense of other areas.

Moreover, as far as portraying the city dishonestly, you're on the record denigrating Syracuse for having, among other things, poor schools, rampant crime, and a downtrodden citizenry; you've also said that, due to these factors, you could never recommend that someone settle there. They're baseless claims that show no familiarity with what the city is like, and it serves to give casual readers of this forum a very wrong impression.

First, besides NYC (where parking and traffic are horrific) upper class educated people do not ride public transportation generally. Usually people with higher incomes and educations like expensive European cars, or the latest trendy hybrids.

And I fail to see why you believe highly educated people prefer to live in the cities as opposed to the suburbs. This can be true in places like NYC or Boston to a lessor degree because of commute times but by and large I fail to see the argument.


The only way you are going to see the "sprawl" cease is when people stop wanting to live in the suburbs. And if the local government stopped allowing new developments, etc to be built do you really beleive people would move back to the city??? No they'd most likely move away. Face it, until there is more economic stimulation within the city, which would force the city to clean up areas or demo sections if warrented, the exodus will continue. At this point now there is no reason for people to move to the city from the suburbs aside from lower housing costs.

And I can not believe you are serious with the Rome comment, that is sarcasim I hope

[bellafinzi]

I say go ahead.

Please Onondaga County, go ahead and stop "subsidizing sprawl".

We'll see the consequences for ourselves.

[proulxfamily]

Oh good grief... it's called Sarcasm. lol - I have it in spades... maybe I should blame it on my growing up around sarcastic family from Poughkeepsie and Long Island but what's the fun in that?

"A man without a sense of humor is like a wagon without springs. It's jolted by every pebble on the road." -Henry Ward Beecher

[bellafinzi]

Originally Posted by grdnrman

I just found & read this post that you wrote some time ago. You are right on target; absolutely correct.

People just don't think these issues thru realistically considering ALL FACTORS, IDEAS, BELIEFS, & the DESIRES of ALL people. Some people think that all you need to do is "wish" or "wave a magic wand" or "force" people to live inside the city by passing laws to make it illegal/restrict/prevent development in outer suburban areas. NO THANKS!! I do not want to live in an inner city atmosphere even if its all restored 100% and "sparkles" and "shines". YOU (these restrictive people/ideas), CAN'T DECIDE FOR ME what type atmosphere area I MUST live in. I love Boston and visit there often. They have restored many areas around center city and the brick buildings/homes are beautifully restored inside and out. Regardless of how well Boston has restored/finished these buildings/homes, I still would NOT want to live in that center city area even if I could afford it. I just don't think that YOU, "restrictive" solution people, have thought this whole "improve the city" issue thru realistically. Just think of the hundreds of millions of dollars it would take to make Syracuse city a "sparkling jewel". Simply tell me where ALL THAT MONEY is supposed to come from? MOST people who live IN the city do not have and can not afford the cost to improve their property to the high level that you are talking about. I would say that a majority of people IN the city are just trying to pay their current monthly bills, keep food on the table, and try to stay healthy & safe; they don't have extra disposible money! Many people are at poverty & low income levels and have NO prospect to change/improve their situation; these are decent people but they don't have a "money tree" in their backyard or a goose laying "golden eggs" which they can sell. Their limited incomes are not going to magically increase if YOU FORCE these people to improve their homes; they'll just end up homeless or worse. And don't tell me that you will "warehouse" them in new sparkling highrise public housing. There you go again! Trying to decide/force these people into ticky-tacky highrise warehouse public housing; a lot of them just want to live in "their own private homes" in peace.

Please realize that there are NO "magic wand/simplistic" solutions to improve and make Syracuse city a vibrant/successful/energetic metropolis; it will take a lot of planning, work, and $$$MONEY$$$.

Syracuse problems>>1. Low/limited income and poverty level people; they are disadvantaged and just trying to pay their current monthly bills-NO extra income. 2. Crime & senseless murders. 3. Drug use & trafficing which leads to crime. 4. Substandard public schools which could be solved/improved by students taking their education seriously/studying hard/meeting high standards rather than treating school like one big party; get rid of the "attitudes", ban cell phones, prohibit classroom disruptions, punish fighting, and stop loose behavior; shape up! And the parents should support high standards and tough school rules! 5. Empty business building after empty business building. 6. Some dirty/unkept streets & parking lots & areas--tell the city to have the sanitation department and building owners clean them up. 7. Etc, etc. etc.

Syracuse solutions>>1. Keep the two Interstate highways-81 & 690-passing thru downtown "in place", in their current locations and keep them in good safe driveable condition. This alleviates traffic jams which is a major complaint about any center city and the expressways provide easy access/use/visitation to center city areas to do business there. 2. Keep improving "pocket/enclave" sections around the downtown area to target redevelopment of several blocks of property at a time. Such as has been done at Armory Square, Little Italy, Tipperary Hill, Franklin Square, & Westcott Street area. Keep that type redevelopment proceeding. An enclave near downtown that needs MORE encouragement/redevelopment/assistance is the Hawley - Green Streets area; that could be a nice unique business & residential area. 3. Syracuse city must bring more conventions to DOWNTOWN and steer/direct/show/take those people/visitors to city museums and Armory Square, Little Italy & Tipperary Hill restaurants and businesses. Have small trolley buses operate and take visitors between these specific "sightseeing" areas at a nominal/reasonable fee. 4. Syracuse HAS TO get/convince more BIG offices/businesses to locate their facilities at sites DOWNTOWN. These new office buildings should be beautiful/classy/impressive/unique architecture and MUST HAVE connected or "next door" parking garages for their employees & visitors to use. Once several high rise office buildings are established and occupied then you will see small retail shops, small eateries, newsstands, snack bars, gift shops, florists, etc. opening BUT all these small businesses opening are based on Syracuse city getting the big business offices to locate/build/establish IN DOWNTOWN. This is how you can improve center city Syracuse and then people MAY consider moving to the city and having nice/well kept homes and neighborhoods. 5. There's a whole lot more to improving Syracuse city but the steps outlined herein are a good basic start. Keeping Interstates-81 & 690-in good/safe condition at their current locations and having more highrise office buildings with attached parking garages constructed downtown ARE THE FOUNDATION for a better/vibrant/successful future Syracuse. Does anyone have comments on MY comments?

Thanks!

My comments.

It does not matter what you say, but how you say it. Remember this!

It took me a couple years on the internet to figure this out.

If I decided, I could reveal everything I know about this topic or about how the world works (or any topic) in one post.

Why don't I do this?

Even if it is 100% true, most readers probably would not believe what I'm trying to say. People are much more impressed with how you say something, not what you actually say. Like Moses, I was not given the talent to be well-spoken most of the time.

[Cleveland Park]

Guy, the fact that you put "subsidizing sprawl" in quotes again suggests that you don't have any understanding of the root causes of sprawl. We're going in circles with this; if you wish to be ignorant, this is going to be futile.

There aren't any wealthy suburbanites out there who are funding their own roads, sewer lines, electric lines, or gas lines. This was (and, in some jurisdictions, is) a dedicated effort of the local government, building infrastructure with public funds in hopes that private funds would follow. It's not an argument, it's fact. How can this possibly be difficult for you to understand?