JP Morgan Chase Hiring for Syracuse Tech Center (New York, Rochester: construction, university)

[Cleveland Park]

I've considered each of those questions. Current Transportation Center works pretty well as a bus station (close to major interstates) and could remain as such (kills the intermodal aspect, though) but could also be a great station for a future commuter rail line or two (it sits roughly as the junction of a line to Cicero and a line up Route 57; each line would orginate at one of the two largest northern suburban population centers, terminate at the Walsh Transportation Center, and be consolidated into a single line into downtown). Buses aren't a great fit at a downtown rail station (don't mix well with pedestrians); I guess this is a problem everywhere (Port Authority in New York, talks to move the Greyhound station here in the District, etc.)

I'd steer the Time Warner folks to another Class A building downtown; space abounds, and they could use the space much more efficiently. I've often thought that the 1970s-era (or maybe late-1960s) NYNEX building diagonally across from Fayette Park would be a great demolition candidate -- it's considered obsolete (has been vacant for 15+ years), has little architectural merit (plain Modernist black glass), and chops up a great piece of Syracuse's old street grid (a diagonal block of East Genesee Street). That could be torn down, Genesee could be restored, and a pair of flatiron buildings could be developed on the remaining land. They'd be prime real estate -- clean sightlines between Fayette Park and Clinton Square (two of the nicest parks in downtown), adjacent to One Park Place and City Hall, close to the Hill, and four blocks from a new train station. Time Warner would be happy to lease in there.

[ckhthankgod]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Park

I've considered each of those questions. Current Transportation Center works pretty well as a bus station (close to major interstates) and could remain as such (kills the intermodal aspect, though) but could also be a great station for a future commuter rail line or two (it sits roughly as the junction of a line to Cicero and a line up Route 57; each line would orginate at one of the two largest northern suburban population centers, terminate at the Walsh Transportation Center, and be consolidated into a single line into downtown). Buses aren't a great fit at a downtown rail station (don't mix well with pedestrians); I guess this is a problem everywhere (Port Authority in New York, talks to move the Greyhound station here in the District, etc.)

I'd steer the Time Warner folks to another Class A building downtown; space abounds, and they could use the space much more efficiently. I've often thought that the 1970s-era (or maybe late-1960s) NYNEX building diagonally across from Fayette Park would be a great demolition candidate -- it's considered obsolete (has been vacant for 15+ years), has little architectural merit (plain Modernist black glass), and chops up a great piece of Syracuse's old street grid (a diagonal block of East Genesee Street). That could be torn down, Genesee could be restored, and a pair of flatiron buildings could be developed on the remaining land. They'd be prime real estate -- clean sightlines between Fayette Park and Clinton Square (two of the nicest parks in downtown), adjacent to One Park Place and City Hall, close to the Hill, and four blocks from a new train station. Time Warner would be happy to lease in there.

That could work. I have noticed that the rail that is current in place could bring in commuters from places as far as Brewerton, Canastota, Oswego, Phoenix, Cortland and Port Byron into Downtown. It would also be nice to extend the rail that stops just short of Peat Street coming from the East and extend that into Downtown at the old Train Station. That could be used for those that might work at SU, the Center of Excellence and the Bio Tech Center, along with other points Downtown. This also would be good, as it would connect the metro area and region with rail infrastructure, while giving an alternate mode of transportation to Downtown. In turn, it could help ease the burden of traffic and parking that occurs Downtown as well.

syracuse, ny - Google Maps

[Cleveland Park]

Yep, that'd be ideal. Rail might be a squeeze between Peat and just beyond Teall, but by the time I-690 reaches the Lodi overpass, the right-of-way is way wider than the expressway and two tracks would probably work. Some lane shifting would be needed, but that would really change the face of Syracuse. It'd be a big investment, but probably not much more than the public outlay to clean Onondaga Lake.

[phaelon56]

In the midst of discussion about light rail a question rises in my mind: are accurate figures available to quantify the number of commuters who presently work downtown and the geographic distribution from which they commute?

I recognize that we need to commit to some extent to a "if we build it they will come" scenario as it relates to employment downtown but I don't know what the breaking point is in terms of cost. If several large employers (500+ employees each) all decide to open shop downtown or relocate there from the suburbs.... will there be a sufficient critical mass of commuters and others who avail themselves of light rail to justify its development?

I recognize that such initiatives can never be expected to run at a profit as the overall impact goes far beyond simple profit and loss statements. But we do have a situation here that's quite dissimilar to cities such as Charlotte - where light rail was developed in spite of the naysayers and has proven to be wildly successful. Charlotte did and still does have a high concentration of professional jobs in Uptown and has housing that has developed in such a way as to lend efficiency to the system (i.e. much the target market of potential light rail commuters is clustered in a few specific direction out from Uptown). In other words.... the jobs, the people and the need already existed - it was simple enough to build light rail to link them and then see tangible additional benefits accrue.

I wonder if the massive funding needed for light rail might be better directed to some other type of smart development that could give us more return on investment for this area.

[CUPlanner]

Good points, phaelon56. Having looked at various sources, it seems that between 20,000 and 30,000 people work in the downtown area, not necessarily in the main core but in that area of the city. That is not a huge number, but it is significant for this region. There are also another 10,000 or so at least that work on University Hill and at the hospitals, so there is a market for improved commuter systems, albeit somewhat small.

Three things really make a an improved commuter system a must-have in my mind:

1) One of the biggest gripes people have about working and going downtown is parking. The highways and roads in the area make getting there a quick and easy process, but finding parking often takes as long as getting there, or costs an arm and a leg if you are parking in a garage. In addition, many people dont want to park in a garage, as they are usually dark, smelly, and scary places, especially at night. After all, the garage/parking issue was one of the major reasons Excellus Blue Cross left Downtown for Dewitt, taking 1,000 employees with them. If parking and transportation becomes less of an issue, more large employers with 500+ employees might think about moving downtown.

2) Many people, most notably students on University Hill, either can't or don't want to drive to run errands and get around. Syracuse is so sprawled out that it really is only a viable place to live if you have a car. That is a significant expense that many cannot afford or do not want to pay for, plus a lot of younger people I know would prefer to walk and take transit rather than drive and park, especially when going out at night and on the weekends.

3) We already have a line of elevated and at-grade train tracks that run right through Downtown, past the University, the hospitals, the mall, the transportaion center, the stadium, and through many neighborhoods all the way out through the major suburbs in Cicero, Clay, Geddes, Solvay, Jamesville, East Syracuse, Minoa and others. Because of this, we wouldn't even have to take on most of the major expenses of starting and constructing a rail line that many cities have, and expanding it would be a fairly limited endeavor.

Besides, though I think that we need to encourage more Smart Growth policies and sustainable development in the area, the Syracuse MSA is so low-density that funding one or two such developments would probably have an effect or benefits on a fairly small scale, whereas a commuter train service has the potential to benefit many different areas at once in a big way.

[ckhthankgod]

Originally Posted by phaelon56

In the midst of discussion about light rail a question rises in my mind: are accurate figures available to quantify the number of commuters who presently work downtown and the geographic distribution from which they commute?

I recognize that we need to commit to some extent to a "if we build it they will come" scenario as it relates to employment downtown but I don't know what the breaking point is in terms of cost. If several large employers (500+ employees each) all decide to open shop downtown or relocate there from the suburbs.... will there be a sufficient critical mass of commuters and others who avail themselves of light rail to justify its development?

I recognize that such initiatives can never be expected to run at a profit as the overall impact goes far beyond simple profit and loss statements. But we do have a situation here that's quite dissimilar to cities such as Charlotte - where light rail was developed in spite of the naysayers and has proven to be wildly successful. Charlotte did and still does have a high concentration of professional jobs in Uptown and has housing that has developed in such a way as to lend efficiency to the system (i.e. much the target market of potential light rail commuters is clustered in a few specific direction out from Uptown). In other words.... the jobs, the people and the need already existed - it was simple enough to build light rail to link them and then see tangible additional benefits accrue.

I wonder if the massive funding needed for light rail might be better directed to some other type of smart development that could give us more return on investment for this area.

Good points. I think that with the way the University is expanding to places Downtown and in the vicinity and being in close proximity to Downtown, it could possibly work. As a University employee, a big issue in terms of working there is the parking issue. If there is some type of light rail that could be close by and efficient, I think some University Hill workers could take the light rail. Now, I'm not sure if the numbers as to how many people work in the Downtown/University Hill area is the number that cU put up, but if those numbers are just for Downtown, it might have the potential to be successful.

[ckhthankgod]

Originally Posted by CUPlanner

Good points, phaelon56. Having looked at various sources, it seems that between 20,000 and 30,000 people work in the downtown area, not necessarily in the main core but in that area of the city. That is not a huge number, but it is significant for this region. There are also another 10,000 or so at least that work on University Hill and at the hospitals, so there is a market for improved commuter systems, albeit somewhat small.

Three things really make a an improved commuter system a must-have in my mind:

1) One of the biggest gripes people have about working and going downtown is parking. The highways and roads in the area make getting there a quick and easy process, but finding parking often takes as long as getting there, or costs an arm and a leg if you are parking in a garage. In addition, many people dont want to park in a garage, as they are usually dark, smelly, and scary places, especially at night. After all, the garage/parking issue was one of the major reasons Excellus Blue Cross left Downtown for Dewitt, taking 1,000 employees with them. If parking and transportation becomes less of an issue, more large employers with 500+ employees might think about moving downtown.

2) Many people, most notably students on University Hill, either can't or don't want to drive to run errands and get around. Syracuse is so sprawled out that it really is only a viable place to live if you have a car. That is a significant expense that many cannot afford or do not want to pay for, plus a lot of younger people I know would prefer to walk and take transit rather than drive and park, especially when going out at night and on the weekends.

3) We already have a line of elevated and at-grade train tracks that run right through Downtown, past the University, the hospitals, the mall, the transportaion center, the stadium, and through many neighborhoods all the way out through the major suburbs in Cicero, Clay, Geddes, Solvay, Jamesville, East Syracuse, Minoa and others. Because of this, we wouldn't even have to take on most of the major expenses of starting and constructing a rail line that many cities have, and expanding it would be a fairly limited endeavor.

Besides, though I think that we need to encourage more Smart Growth policies and sustainable development in the area, the Syracuse MSA is so low-density that funding one or two such developments would probably have an effect or benefits on a fairly small scale, whereas a commuter train service has the potential to benefit many different areas at once in a big way.

Exactly! I think the thing people don't think about is the young population we have here due to the colleges in the area. Just within Onondaga county and the adjacent counties, there are 9 or 10 colleges. Think about the students from Cortland, Oswego, Auburn and even the colleges in Madison County that might take a trip to Syracuse by using a rail system.

We also have a pretty large elderly population that would possibly use this system to get around as well.

Like CU mentioned, so many things have grown outward, that you need some type of transit that could have supplement the CENTRO system we already have and would take the burden off of them as well.

[Cleveland Park]

I'd be quick to admit that the idea of light rail (or heavy rail, which is what I was envisioning along the I-690 ROW) is pretty pie-in-the-sky for Syracuse right now -- certainly more of an "if you build it..." scenario. It's a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem right now. Onondaga County probably doesn't have the political will or the hard numbers to justify building any sort of a fixed-rail commuter system, but such investment probably is needed to get the area over the hump with the young generation that's looking for city living. Moreover, downtown's always going to remain a semi-unpleasant place as long as it's loaded with garages, surface parking, and one-way arterials.

Syracuse does not currently need commuter rail investment; without it, though, it will hand away (possibly its last) opportunity to drastically remake itself, both by attracting center-city development and by refreshing its human capital. Quite a pickle.

[phaelon56]

A pickle indeed.

And...

We already have a line of elevated and at-grade train tracks that run right through Downtown, past the University, the hospitals, the mall, the transportation center, the stadium, and through many neighborhoods all the way out through the major suburbs in Cicero, Clay, Geddes, Solvay, Jamesville, East Syracuse, Minoa and others. Because of this, we wouldn't even have to take on most of the major expenses of starting and constructing a rail line that many cities have, and expanding it would be a fairly limited endeavor.

(italics added)

Are the tracks being referred to currently unused or does Conrail use them for freight? That's a huge issue and one that will have to be considered if local light rail feasibility discussions ever move forward. Sharing tracks with freight rail has been and remains a huge obstacle for Amtrak outside the Boston-NY-PHL-DC corridor where they have dedicated tracks for passenger rail.

[CUPlanner]

Excellent question. The tracks I am speaking of are currently owned by CSX and the New York, Susquehanna, and Western Railroad. I am currently doing some research on this, but from what I have seen, there are only two or three freight trains a day that run on the section of track through downtown and only the occasional train runs on the portion of track along Onondaga Lake through the Village of Liverpool and up North. I could be wrong and if anyone knows anything about this please let me know. This portion of track is the most intriguing of the existing rail right-of-ways for commuter service, in my opinion, and was the line used by OnTrack when it was in operation.

The section of track running west of Onondaga Lake through Geddes past the transportation center and to the East Syracuse depot is much, much busier and is one of CSX's major repair stations in the area. That piece of track would pose a bigger issue to a dependable commuter rail line, but who knows what improvements are coming as part of the rail stimulus package that is supposed to begin being paid out later in the fall.