No rail for Florida (Jacksonville, Miami: home, taxes, living)

[BBI]

Originally Posted by jp01358

I'm fine with the language you picked too! You are simply misconstruing certain provisions.

The part that you chose to focus on, "designed to ensure the proper maintenance, safety, revitalization, and expansion of the rail system to assure its continued and increased availability to respond to statewide mobility needs," merely enunciates the purpose of the rail system that the legislature created the agency to build. It does not change the fact the the legislature created the agency for the express purpose of building the rail system, and that the legislature did not make the building of the rail system optional.

And how are you going to put the words in those brackets there? They are not there. Yes, the governor is to see that the intent of the legislature is carried out, and in that way he controls it, but he may not simply refuse to implement the law that is given to him.

He's not refusing to implement any aspect of the law. There is no law saying that anyone has to build a rail line between Tampa and Orlando. Nothing in the statutes says that any particular rail line has to be built. In fact, the statutes say the opposite: that the executive branch can plan where rail lines go, can relocate rail lines, and can "demolish" existing rail lines. Generally, when construing statutes, the greater authority (to plan, relocate and demolish) includes the lesser authority (to not build). Therefore, the executive branch, through it's authority to not build any particular rail line, has the authority to not build a rail system. This was almost certainly intended by the legislature, which, when it passed the relevant laws, did not want to take on any responsiblity for picking where the rail lines would go, what kind of lines they would be, who would build them, etc.

Let's put it another way: if the federal government offered billions for a train that ran from St. Pete Beach into the gulf (i.e., to nowhere), under your reading of the statute, Scott would have to accept the funds. This, of course, is a terribly poor result, since there is no possible "statewide mobility need" related to a train to nowhere.

Or check out Section 341.302(18), which provides the executive branch the authority to "Exercise such other functions, powers, and duties in connection with the rail system plan as are necessary to develop a safe, efficient, and effective statewide transportation system." Again, if the governor believes there's no benefit to a train between Tampa and Orlando then an "efficeint and effective statewide transportation system" should not include a train between Tampa and Orlando.

Your reading is very strained, does not follow the letter of the law, does not follow normal govenrmental agency practice, and the FL Supreme Court disagrees with you.

[I put those words into brackets to emphasize the point that the governor controls the FL rail enterprise department and any other governmental agency involved in the planning, construction, demolition, operation or management of any train under Section 341.822.]

[BBI]

Originally Posted by jp01358

I think we can all agree that those are valid concerns. The problem is the governor's intransigence when it comes to addressing those concerns. He wouldn't listen to any proposals. From what I've heard, there were plans developed that would alleviate the risks, but Scott would not even consider them. That's my problem with it from a policy standpoint. He didn't give it a fair shake.

What kind of proposal could mitigate against the risk that the train, once completed, would provide no financial benefit to the state? Isn't that the real question here? If Scott believes that the train provides no value once built, shouldn't he be uncompromising?

[jp01358]

Your statute reading is very strained. I disagree that a greater authority necessarily includes a lesser authority. The legislature would not create an agency to do something, and also give it the power to do nothing. It does not make sense.

You're attacking my argument by reductio ad absurdum as far as the building a train into the ocean. Reductio ad absurdum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. You and I both know damn well that the plan of the legislature was to have a high speed train system connecting Tampa, Orlando, and Miami.

As far as the "no financial benefit to the state" argument, I think it is being looked at improperly. A financial benefit to the state is not the same as an operating profit. If it was, then I believe all public transit systems in the United States would have no financial benefit to the state. The financial benefit is a little more tangential most of the time when we are dealing with public transportation. After all, the roads cost us a lot of money, and people don't typically pay to drive around on them, but they have huge financial benefits for the state. If the rail line didn't work, and the financial benefit was found to be less than what it was worth, it could be shut down and demolished. I don't think it's likely that it would be the case, but if so, very little state money would have been wasted, and lots and lots of people would have received the benefit of having a job for a time, which, while not as good as a permanent job, is a hell of a lot better than no job.

[chi_tino]

Originally Posted by xbillyx

I was hoping to be able to ride the rail from Tampa to Orlando someday.

Is this a joke? Are all of you people serious?

You can currently ride the rail from Tampa to Orlando RIGHT NOW. I've done it. You buy a ticket from Amtrak for about $10 and you get to take that short, fun choo-choo ride that you are dying to experience.

It kills me that people are calling our governor ignorant while not even realizing that we already have train service between the two cities.

[jp01358]

Originally Posted by chi_tino

Is this a joke? Are all of you people serious?

You can currently ride the rail from Tampa to Orlando RIGHT NOW. I've done it. You buy a ticket from Amtrak for about $10 and you get to take that short, fun choo-choo ride that you are dying to experience.

It kills me that people are calling our governor ignorant while not even realizing that we already have train service between the two cities.

You can go to Orlando today and come back tomorrow, but you can't go to Orlando today and come back today. Plus, the high speed rail would be much faster and you wouldn't have to worry about a delay in Jacksonville keeping your train from being on time. AmTrak is garbage, and it really isn't much of a viable option.

[DarkWolf]

Originally Posted by dlhanson

Thank you, Governor Scott, for saving the state of Florida millions of dollars (in the long run). "High speed" (it's not really high speed) rail is an answer to a question that the United States does not have.

It would have been 160mph , still slower then the 220mph planned for the Northeast and Cali....but fast enough..

[chi_tino]

Originally Posted by jp01358

If the rail line didn't work, and the financial benefit was found to be less than what it was worth, it could be shut down and demolished.

So when are we going to see Tampa demolish the trolley line, which loses millions of dollars every year, on top of already costing over $60 million in capital costs and operating losses?

Never -- they will keep flushing money down that vacant, expensive, traffic-slowing nightmare of a system.

In fact, if you have attended any city meetings on the trolley, they want to continue to EXPAND it, because they actually believe that the reason it keeps losing money is that is isn't large ENOUGH! Hence, they added the 2-block stub running north from the convention center to Hattrick's.

And since the bucket of funds that were used to support the operating losses is almost depleted, the next round of payments will be from businesses and individuals who live/work in the Channelside and Ybor corridors. They will see huge line items on the property tax bills since they are in the "trolley corridor district". I can't wait to see the you-know-what hit the fan when that occurs.

It is almost like the high speed rail fantasy, just on a miniature scale.

[jp01358]

Originally Posted by chi_tino

So when are we going to see Tampa demolish the trolley line, which loses millions of dollars every year, on top of already costing over $60 million in capital costs and operating losses?

Never -- they will keep flushing money down that vacant, expensive, traffic-slowing nightmare of a system.

In fact, if you have attended any city meetings on the trolley, they want to continue to EXPAND it, because they actually believe that the reason it keeps losing money is that is isn't large ENOUGH! Hence, they added the 2-block stub running north from the convention center to Hattrick's.

And since the bucket of funds that were used to support the operating losses is almost depleted, the next round of payments will be from businesses and individuals who live/work in the Channelside and Ybor corridors. They will see huge line items on the property tax bills since they are in the "trolley corridor district". I can't wait to see the you-know-what hit the fan when that occurs.

It is almost like the high speed rail fantasy, just on a miniature scale.

You're missing the point. Public transportation is not designed to turn a profit.

[chi_tino]

Originally Posted by jp01358

You can go to Orlando today and come back tomorrow, but you can't go to Orlando today and come back today. Plus, the high speed rail would be much faster and you wouldn't have to worry about a delay in Jacksonville keeping your train from being on time. AmTrak is garbage, and it really isn't much of a viable option.

Call your governor/congressman/mayor/etc and tell them to add service to that line. A few extra trains should cost less than $5 billion.

I won't even charge the state $10 million in consulting fees for that advice.

[jp01358]

Originally Posted by chi_tino

Call your governor/congressman/mayor/etc and tell them to add service to that line. A few extra trains should cost less than $5 billion.

I won't even charge the state $10 million in consulting fees for that advice.

The federal government didn't offer to foot the bill for additional Amtrak lines.